Teacher Left Gun in Restroom

D

Double Naught Spy

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With all the hype to arm school teachers, particularly in Florida, the argument is made more difficult when one of the Parkland teachers (Stoneman Douglas High School) who volunteered to be armed later left his gun in a restroom over the weekend. It was found and discharged in the restroom by a drunk homeless man, then later taken back by the teacher.

Both the drunk and teacher face charges...

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/fabiola-santiago/article208696799.html
 
Gee I'm real sorry some teacher left his gun in the bathroom. Perhaps if he was no a gun control supporter, he could have taken this responsibility seriously. That article is jacked up. Seems like no research.

On the other hand, "bearing arms" is a right. Quit whining and take his drivers' license or teachers license away as they are privileges.
 
In a society that viewed a gun as another tool, like a jigsaw, that would be careless; but not a big deal. Because firearms have some magical talisman status (on both sides of the debate), it is a big deal.

At the end of the day, if people feel like you carrying a gun makes them safer, they'll support you. If they feel like you carrying a gun is dangerous, then all you have left is fear to work with and that will probably pan out poorly.
 
If we are serious about making schools hard targets, why don't we hire real armed guards?
Arming teachers is just a low cost bandage that only works to make some people feel better. If we follow that path stories like in to op are going to become common place and the move to restrict access to firearms will gain strength.
 
Realistically, we just watched a major metropolitan law enforcement agency refuse to engage a school shooter on a system-wide basis. Honestly, if I were a teacher, I'd have zero interest in stalking around a school wondering whether I'd get shot by responding law enforcement or the school shooter first while trying to clear a large structure by myself; and all for extra training out of my own pocket in exchange for extra risk and liability.

And if something did happen and I did the tactically sound thing and forted up, I'd get thrown under the bus at the first sign of political pressure. I don't think we can fault teachers for being reluctant to assume one more serious responsibility for zero additional compensation.
 
And if something did happen and I did the tactically sound thing and forted up, I'd get thrown under the bus at the first sign of political pressure. I don't think we can fault teachers for being reluctant to assume one more serious responsibility for zero additional compensation.
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Great post.

The proposed arming of teachers is feel good security on the cheap. A gun in the classroom presents a huge liability issue. No savvy teacher would carry a gun in the classroom until politicians have addressed the liability issue. If school districts and politicians want armed teachers let them fund CLEET certification and boost salaries.
 
If we are serious about making schools hard targets, why don't we hire real armed guards?
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You mean like Parkland did? Let's see, first they had a SRO that intentionally failed to make entry into the school and after the shooting a couple weeks later, another SRO was found to be sleeping on the job.

We tend NOT to invest in community safety very well. For how long have we needed more cops, but nobody wants to pay the extra taxes to have a cop on every corner. A lot of people don't want increases in their school taxes to pay to have several police officers or other armed guard protecting schools. Money is a very real factor when it comes to community safety, be it paying for more cops or things like bridge repairs.
 
...later left his gun in a restroom...
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People who carry must develop a system/process that minimizes their need for removing their gun from its normal carry position while in public and TOTALLY ELIMINATES the possibility of placing it somewhere that it could possibly be forgotten.

It is totally unacceptable (for multiple reasons) to put a gun somewhere in public where it could possibly be left by mistake.

The simplest and most obvious reason is that it is no longer performing its primary function if it is inaccessible to the person who made the decision to carry it.
 
Teachers and state licensed carriers both have responsibilities; one presumes there should be some sort of consequence for failing to meet those responsibilities. That doesn't really bear on whether it's smart policy to prohibit licensed carriers from carrying on school grounds.

Bartholomew Roberts said:
Realistically, we just watched a major metropolitan law enforcement agency refuse to engage a school shooter on a system-wide basis. Honestly, if I were a teacher, I'd have zero interest in stalking around a school wondering whether I'd get shot by responding law enforcement or the school shooter first while trying to clear a large structure by myself; and all for extra training out of my own pocket in exchange for extra risk and liability.

And if something did happen and I did the tactically sound thing and forted up, I'd get thrown under the bus at the first sign of political pressure. I don't think we can fault teachers for being reluctant to assume one more serious responsibility for zero additional compensation.
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Self defense isn't an additional responsibility though. In these episodes we see teachers taking defensive action already.

I agree that political risks are present as well as the risk posed by entering POs. It isn't clear that disarming teachers while at school makes the defensive situation better.
 
If you sell it as “armed teachers protect yoir children”, you are setting yourself up for failure; because eventually a shooting will happen and an armed teacher will either fail to respond or respond and fail to succeed. But “armed teachers protect your children” is both an easier sell and a “let’s do something NOW!” answer.

If you sell it as “any human being, in any location has a right to defend their life.”, that is a tougher sell but you aren’t setting yourself up for inevitable failure
 
Yet, we already know that unarmed teachers attempt to protect students Whether armed or not, there is going to be some degree of teacher failure, so an inevitable failure of a single teacher can't be a failure of allowing teachers to arm. In the same way, it is routine that an individual PO will fail in his response, but that doesn't render the idea of policing a failure.

I am not contesting the observation that an armed teacher is in a bad spot if he needs to use his concealed weapon defensively. That seems true for all concealed carriers. It's difficult to imagine someone in that bad spot wishing he weren't armed.
 
Bartholomew Roberts said:
I don't think we can fault teachers for being reluctant to assume one more serious responsibility for zero additional compensation.
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I guess I'm crazy for being willing to defend my life for free?
 
It's not as much about "arming teachers" as it is giving teachers and other school personnel the same ability to defend themselves as every other citizen in the workplace. In Texas, carrying a gun with a LTC in a non-permissive workplace is punishable by, at most, being fired and a possible $200 fine (with proper signage). In a Texas public school, it becomes a felony.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
 
People who carry must develop a system/process that minimizes their need for removing their gun from its normal carry position while in public and TOTALLY ELIMINATES the possibility of placing it somewhere that it could possibly be forgotten.
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The instructor of my CC class mentioned that when CC guns are accidentally left behind a public restroom on top of the toilet tank is the most common location. He recommended to, if sitting is the bathroom position, to place your gun in your underwear in-between your legs.
 
Let's not do the bathroom methods discussion again.

If folks don't want to carry and use lethal force instruments, it's their decision and understandable if you move beyond your own beliefs and cliches.

The officer was an idiot. The drunk had an excuse.

It was a great negative for the cause.
 
I've posted this before, but this seems an appropriate time to revisit the issue:

We all know that the only sure way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Unfortunately, there are three drawbacks in allowing teachers and school staff members to carry concealed weapons:

(1) Human nature being what it is, it is inevitable that some armed teacher will leave a gun in a desk drawer, briefcase, or purse, to be found by a student.

(2) Armed school staff will be at a terrible disadvantage using small concealable handguns against a heavily armed active shooter who may be wearing body armor.

(3) Armed teachers will be in mortal danger from law enforcement officers responding to reports of an active shooter.

In my opinion, the best solution to mitigating the casualty count in school active shooter incidents is to pre-stage AR-15 or similar rifles in secure, alarmed containers at numerous locations on the campus, along with armored clearly identifiable “raid” jackets for responding school staff. Specially trained teachers and staff members need only carry a key to the container, greatly reducing the chance of a weapon falling into the wrong hands. Upon hearing an alarm, or shots fired, responding teachers could don the raid jacket and take up an effective weapon within seconds when delay equates to lost lives. Responding law enforcement would be instantly able to identify “good guy” armed responders.

Pre-staging effective weapons and protective gear like we do fire extinguishers will minimize the danger of weapons on campus while maximizing the chances of quickly stopping an armed intruder.

My Credentials: I have more than 40 years of law enforcement and law enforcement training experience. I am a retired Special Agent of the US Army Criminal Investigation Command (CID), and am the retired Director of Advanced Force Tactics, Inc., a firm devoted to teaching judgmental use of force and gunfighting tactics, including active shooter response, to law enforcement agencies nationwide.
 
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