Tasered to death?

but of course you didn't think of it because you want to blame the police instead of the person who initiated the confrontation
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Actually I didn't think of it because I'm not CPR trained and thus it's simply something I wouldn't know. But yeah, I was wrong on that one.
 
I didn't think of it because I'm not CPR trained and thus it's simply something I wouldn't know.
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So then should we assume that you are trained in the other aspects of police work for which you have offered your expertise?
 
So then should we assume that you are trained in the other aspects of police work for which you have offered your expertise?
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Not necessarily, no. But then again, police work is a little less black and white than CPR. Also, it's not necessarily inappropriate for the citizenry at large (or a member thereof) to question the actions of police, either their policies as a whole or their actions in an individual incident. One need not be a police officer to hold the opinion that police have acted wrongly (and even be right, though I'll not make that claim here)...despite what many in the law enforcement community would like you to believe.

I have had some meager amount of training on use of force against civilians, dealing with detainees (and the use of force there) and dealing with "suspects" who don't speak the same language as me. But no, I'd not dream of claiming I have the same amount or type of training the average police officer has.
 
But no, I'd not dream of claiming I have the same amount or type of training the average police officer has.
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But yet you categorically state that they were wrong in their actions even though you have no idea whatsoever about the back story in this incident

I have had some meager amount of training on use of force against civilians, dealing with detainees (and the use of force there) and dealing with "suspects" who don't speak the same language as me.
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I have a bit of experience with how police deal with smart asses (and the use of force there) and with dealing with police who don't speak the same language as me.

I have never been tased (in anger) or hit very hard with a stick
I have always had the common sense to keep my empty hands where they could see that they were empty
I figured if I threatened physical violence there would definitely be some, not necessarily the way I had it planned though
I may have had some things to say about their mothers and might have even accidentally called one or two a little yellow midget, but as soon as the sticks came out their names were magically transformed into Sir (or Ong), depending on the situation, and I was suddenly the picture of mature responsibility
 
But yet you categorically state that they were wrong in their actions even though you have no idea whatsoever about the back story in this incident
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Yeah, pretty much. And after watching the video and reading a couple articles about it, I have a feeling I know just as much about the "back story" as these four officers did at the time. If not more.

And I've not categorically stated they were wrong in all their actions. Oddly, I'm not particularly convinced that their actual use of force was unwarranted. Most of my beef is with how the situation was handled, both by them and others, before that use of force occurred.

You know, not a black-or-white position.

Though I do find interesting that before the video was made public that the officers (or perhaps their fellow officers defending them) were claiming that the reason they deployed tasers rather than pepper spray was because it was a crowded area...even though in the video they seem to be alone with him behind a glass wall. And after talking to some locals, I was given the impression that the use of tasers comes pretty high on their use of force continuum. Which would explain lying as to why they skipped to it.

These are the kind of things that make me view the incident with the skeptic's eye.
 
In the last few years Taser deaths have abound! LEO treat it like a toy and it kills
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Could you please give me areference to an Autopsy Report that stated that the person was killed by a TASER?

Last time I checked this out there had not been a single Autopsy Report that listed the TASER as the primary cause of death. I could be wrong and there may have been one since the last time I searched but I do not recall reading one.

PLEASE do not post articles written by the news media claiming that the TASER killed someone without the Autopsy Report being avaible. I consider those articles just as accurate as the reports that a 50 cal rifle can shoot down a airliner and destroy a tank even when it is a muzzleloader.

People die for many reasons that is why they do Autopsies, to find out why they died.

And no I am not a LEO nor do I have any finacial interest nor own a TASER. I'm just someone who wants to get the facts from someone who knows what they are talking about and can give some references.

Could the TASER have killed him? Maybe I do not know, but without an autopsy I do not think anyone else knows either.

Nukemjim
 
You know, not a black-or-white position.
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Should I show you your "screwed up by the numbers quote"
Pretty black comment to me
Now your expertise has determined that they are liars
Four officers and a suspect in close proximity behind glass seems pretty crowded to me
How is disabling themselves going to help subdue the guy
You will also note that at least one officer was going to go old fashion and hit him with a stick

Your claims to be neither black nor white on the matter don't hold up against your blatant condemnation of the officers actions
At least be genuine

Cops are there for a reason whether you like it or not
Their responses to certain behavior is very predictable, whether you like it or not
If you don't like their reaction don't draw their attention
The rule applies all over the world

RD played a stupid game and predictably lost, he just lost bigger than most. His behavior and his behavior alone created the drama.
Everything else is peripheral
 
Odd coincidence though. Gets 50,000 volts or so and then happens to drop dead
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Perhaps it was the variation of the old fashion choke hold that some of the Taser haters would have the police go back to
 
Comment: A credible argument can be made that a taser can be misused, in combination with other physical restraint options; in a lethal fashion. Was that the case here? Taser + dogpile = death.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=d5b14912-a4f2-4fdf-a94d-46cbee71d5a3&k=46052

Four RCMP officers involved in the Taser death of Robert Dziekanski appear to have breached recommendations on how the weapon should be used.

A 2005 report -- The Taser Technology Review Report -- by the B.C. Police Complaints Commissioner listed a number of key safety recommendations for the use of a Taser.

However, a video of the death of Mr. Dziekanski at the Vancouver International Airport on Oct. 14 suggests they were not followed.

Chief among the recommendations were that Tasers should not be used against someone who is "passively resisting"; that police should not use the Taser multiple times; and that after a Taser shock, the subject should be restrained in a way that allows him to breathe easily.

Officers, in dealing with the 40-year-old Polish man, do not appear to have followed the guidelines.

The report suggests officers approach such a suspect according to a well-thought-out plan.

"Where individuals are contained in a room, officers should use the time to formulate a plan for entry and restraint that allows them to immediately turn the person over to ambulance personnel," the report says.

It goes on to emphasize such precautions are necessary, especially if the subject appears to be suffering from a state of excited delirium -- a condition that may be characterized by such behaviour as a person "running through traffic or otherwise placing themselves and others at risk and would have to be restrained in any event."

It is not known whether Mr. Dziekanski was suffering from excited delirium.

The report states that multiple Taser shocks may have a detrimental effect on a person's pH, carbon dioxide levels and lactate levels.

"Although multiple applications may be tactically required, particularly in remote areas where back-up is distant or unavailable, the risks associated should be included in an officer's decision-making process," the report says.

The video shows Mr. Dziekanski being shocked at least twice.

The report suggests that officers may jeopardize a suspect's ability to breathe if a great deal of weight is placed on the shoulders and back for a long period of time.

The video of Mr. Dziekanski's death shows him screaming on the ground and being restrained by at least one officer who is over him.

Mr. Dziekanski's death has prompted those with knowledge of Tasers to consider the appropriateness of the officers' response.

Donald Van Blaricom, former chief of the Bellevue, Wash., police, said the officers should have made Mr. Dziekanski sit up as soon as possible after he was Tasered.

"He's down on the floor for an awful long time, and it appears that they are holding him down when he is in handcuffs because he is struggling."

Mr. Van Blaricom said the video appears to show a "vicious cycle" in which the more Mr. Dziekanski was restrained on the floor, the more he physically resisted, prompting the police to use even more force, until he stopped breathing.

Often the cause of death is cardiac arrest or asphyxia, in which the person builds up so much lactic acid that they can't breathe any longer, Mr. Van Blaricom said.

Taser-related deaths do not stem from the electrical voltage carried by the electric-control weapon but from the exhausting physical struggle that follows, he said.

Using the Taser was a reasonable option for police given that they could not communicate with him because of the apparent language barrier, he said. However, Mr. Van Blaricom did fault the police for using the Taser too quickly.

"They were able to get quite close to him, and he wasn't being aggressive towards them."

His mother, Zofia Cisowski, says the video images haunt her. She can't sleep. She can't drive a car. She can't even turn on the television.

"I am so mad," she said. "That is no good, but I am so mad at what I saw."

A memorial for Mr. Dziekanski is to be held today at a Kamloops Funeral home.

2005 B.C. TASER REPORT

RECOMMENDATION

Tasers should be used only against a subject who is actively resisting arrest or posing a risk to others, not someone who is "passively resisting."

BUT AT VANCOUVER AIRPORT

Robert Dziekanski, who did not speak English, did not appear to be resisting, and there were no other people in the area who could be hurt by his actions.

RECOMMENDATION

Officers should avoid shocking a subject multiple times.

BUT AT VANCOUVER AIRPORT

Mr. Dziekanski was shocked twice within a matter of seconds.

RECOMMENDATION

Following a Taser shock, a subject should be restrained in a way that allows him to breathe easily.

BUT AT VANCOUVER AIRPORT

At one point, four officers were on top of Mr. Dziekanski. Two officers knelt with their full weight on his neck and back.

RECOMMENDATION

"A number of force technologies, including the Taser ... have been described as 'less lethal' ?We believe this terminology has inadvertently created a mindset among users and the public that these weapons can never have lethal effects."
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Comment: A credible argument can be made that a taser can be misused, in combination with other physical restraint options; in a lethal fashion. Was that the case here? Taser + dogpile = death.
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Right, there is no indication that the guy was tasered to death as claimed in the thread title. There is no indication that he was tasered for 10 minutes as originally claimed either.

As for the dogpile + taser = death formula, actually there are a lot of combinations with dogpiling and/or restraint that result in death, usually due to other conditions pre-existing in the suspect. You get a fat guy high on cocaine who is chased on foot for a couple of blocks by the cops who tackle him and cuff his arms behind his back and the restraint results in my not being able to breath easily. Combined with the adrenaline and cocaine, his heart succumbs.

Perhaps it was the variation of the old fashion choke hold that some of the Taser haters would have the police go back to
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People are going to die. It is that simple. Some of them should not die, no doubt, but they are going to die as a result of their stupidity, physical condition, and in some cases, too much force by the police. Just because somebody dies, however, does not mean the police used too much force.

Mr. Van Blaricom said the video appears to show a "vicious cycle" in which the more Mr. Dziekanski was restrained on the floor, the more he physically resisted, prompting the police to use even more force, until he stopped breathing.

Often the cause of death is cardiac arrest or asphyxia, in which the person builds up so much lactic acid that they can't breathe any longer, Mr. Van Blaricom said.
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His mother, Zofia Cisowski, says the video images haunt her. She can't sleep. She can't drive a car. She can't even turn on the television.
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Congenital mental health issues?
 
Last time I checked this out there had not been a single Autopsy Report that listed the TASER as the primary cause of death. I could be wrong and there may have been one since the last time I searched but I do not recall reading one.
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If I remember correctly (I don't have the link) there has been at least one autopsy report that gave the taser as the direct cause. One. It's possible there have been more, but I'd put money that it's in single digits. Out of how many uses?

It's theoretically possible for a taser use alone to lead to death. This does not mean that it's likely, and does not mean it's any more likely than any other forms of force.

Odd coincidence though. Gets 50,000 volts or so and then happens to drop dead. Wonder what really killed him.
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If I had to put money on it, I'd wager it was the position he was put in in the struggle that ensued that really killed him. Seriously, tasers alone are really pretty safe.

Especially if certain precautions and "best practices" are followed. Unfortunately, as hammer4nc's article suggests, the officers in this case did not follow several of these suggestions creating a more deadly situation that a taser use needs to be.

Suggests to me that more training is needed before we start handing these things out. If any of these suggestions were adopted since they were issued as RCMP policy, then it sounds like these officers should be in some official trouble. That's a big "if," though.

Congenital mental health issues?
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I don't know, watching your son get killed on video might do that to you. But empathy isn't popular around here.

RD played a stupid game and predictably lost, he just lost bigger than most. His behavior and his behavior alone created the drama.
Everything else is peripheral
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See, and I disagree with that bolded part. If they had decided to just walk up and shoot him, that wouldn't be peripheral would it? Well, that's one extreme end of the spectrum, but suggests that maybe "everything" else isn't peripheral. If their actions were negligent and that lead to his death, that negligence wouldn't be peripheral, would it? I mean, any case of police malfeasance or brutality (or simply negligence) can't be excused by "he broke a law first," can it? If it turns out they violated their own agency's policies and that led to the man's death, would that be peripheral?

I just don't particularly agree with this attitude that whatever actions the police take can be excused because the victim broke the law. It's too easy to keep drawing that line further and further.
 
If they had decided to just walk up and shoot him, that wouldn't be peripheral would it?
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The video clearly shows that they did not do that, please keep the discussion on this case not hypotheticals
I could also pull a lot of what ifs out of thin air if we are going to go that route.
Fortunately my argument is strong enough not to have to resort to that
I just don't particularly agree with this attitude that whatever actions the police take can be excused because the victim broke the law.
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Perhaps you would be good enough to show me where I said that
I am speaking about a particular case, this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHKk5qQRzL4
You will notice a clear lack of gunfire and summary execution
 
Quote:
Odd coincidence though. Gets 50,000 volts or so and then happens to drop dead
Perhaps it was the variation of the old fashion choke hold that some of the Taser haters would have the police go back to
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You don't think kneeling on his neck until he stopped moving had anything to do with it, eh?
 
By the way, it does sound like he was either suffocated or had his neck broken by the knees. Either way, not taser-related. But either way, IS related to poor training, and is or should be actionable in court for wrongful death. IMO.
 
By the way, it does sound like he was either suffocated or had his neck broken by the knees. Either way, not taser-related. But either way, IS related to poor training, and is or should be actionable in court for wrongful death. IMO.
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The shocks induced by the taser, especially repeated or prolonged shocks, can contribute to suffocation for some physiological reason that I only vaguely comprehend and won't try to repeat here. This is why training dictates that special care be taken with a recently tased subject to restrain him in a way that allows him to breathe easily (as mentioned in a previously quoted article).

In other words, if suffocation or heart failure was the cause of death, the taser could have contributed directly to that condition.
 
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