talk of secession
- Thread starter sewerman
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madmo44mag
New member
Tennessee Gentleman people do vote.
Problem is society has breed Americans to follow popular follies, beliefs, ideologies. They no longer think for themselves.
It will take some sort of media - political upheaval in the public eve with no holds bared before the average American goes - Duhhh, I must have missed something - back up, what's this, ect...
I believe all this talk of secession and soon to be court hearings, ect... will shake these Americans. Not all of them but enough that the current political socialist BS will come to an abrupt halt.
When this occurs there will enough media coverage the people will once again start to question the rights they lost and the rights they are about to lose.
Look at us right now on this forum.
Perfect example of how when people become aware they take notice and speak up.
By the way Tennessee I do value your point of view!
Gay, black, Hispanics, tree huggers - the list goes on.
Just who are these folks???
Problem is society has breed Americans to follow popular follies, beliefs, ideologies. They no longer think for themselves.
It will take some sort of media - political upheaval in the public eve with no holds bared before the average American goes - Duhhh, I must have missed something - back up, what's this, ect...
I believe all this talk of secession and soon to be court hearings, ect... will shake these Americans. Not all of them but enough that the current political socialist BS will come to an abrupt halt.
When this occurs there will enough media coverage the people will once again start to question the rights they lost and the rights they are about to lose.
Look at us right now on this forum.
Perfect example of how when people become aware they take notice and speak up.
By the way Tennessee I do value your point of view!
Are these the federally protected minorities???
Gay, black, Hispanics, tree huggers - the list goes on.
Just who are these folks???
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johnwilliamson062
Moderator
with this discussion now being strictly limited to the legal aspect of secession, here is my question:
Does it matter if secession is legal or not?
If it comes down to a state thinking it is in their best interest to secede are they going to pause at the fact that they will be breaking the laws of a nation they are abandoning? Will the federal government pause at trying to reclaim the state if they find secession to be legal, but not in the interest of the federal government?
Arguing this point is like arguing whether a run away breaks curfew at their parents house when they do not come home at all. Then arguing whether the parents have the right to restrict that runaways access to their clothes and other items which were left behind.
Whether it breaks the rules or not, is right or wrong, it isn't going to change the situation b/c one actor has abandoned the system and the other has total control within the system.
We are discussing this as if the UN or NATO is going to step in and lay down the law for everyone to abide by.
Does it matter if secession is legal or not?
If it comes down to a state thinking it is in their best interest to secede are they going to pause at the fact that they will be breaking the laws of a nation they are abandoning? Will the federal government pause at trying to reclaim the state if they find secession to be legal, but not in the interest of the federal government?
Arguing this point is like arguing whether a run away breaks curfew at their parents house when they do not come home at all. Then arguing whether the parents have the right to restrict that runaways access to their clothes and other items which were left behind.
Whether it breaks the rules or not, is right or wrong, it isn't going to change the situation b/c one actor has abandoned the system and the other has total control within the system.
We are discussing this as if the UN or NATO is going to step in and lay down the law for everyone to abide by.
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madmo44mag
New member
Quite, that's an up coming thread. LOL!!!!
Tennessee Gentleman
New member
madmo44mag said:
Way too many don't and then bitch about the results. How many people who post and lurk on here are NRA members? Sadly,I bet a lot less than you might think.
I am a life member and proud of it. They are my lobby group.madmo44mag said:
Yes, yes and yes. And others too. Michael Bane said on his podcast that he met with and discussed political tactics with some Gay Rights folk. Whether you are sympathetic to them or not you cannot deny that they have really turned public opinion about since the 1960s. And I believe they are only about 3% of the population (that number is debated but they are small). These guys told Michael how they changed public opinion by changing the language. We could and should do the same for guns. This is the much better path to change than this crazy secession talk IMO.
madmo44mag said:
Thank you sir.
We are I think on the same side.It is sort of undefined to expect everyone to do something that is unpopular, isn't it? Rather like expecting everyone to vote for the candidate they like the least. Oh, I know it isn't supposed to be a popularity contest but I usually don't feel very compelled to vote for people I don't like. But maybe I'm just not thinking for themselves but just listening to the right-wing media on shout radio.
I haven't found it yet but do you suppose there is something in the constitution that allows a state to be expelled?
I haven't found it yet but do you suppose there is something in the constitution that allows a state to be expelled?
Tennessee Gentleman
New member
BlueTrain said:
We live in an unprecedented participatory democracy. One man, one vote. If you won't participate then you can't bitch about the results.
BlueTrain said:
Read the article I posted earlier. The short answer is no a state may not be expelled.
Tennessee Gentleman posted:
Yes, one man one vote, but a constitution hovering over those votes to make sure that the majority doesn't vote away the rights of the "people". Also, a constitution that specifically spells out that the federal government has limited powers and the states and "the people" also have the powers which are not ceded to the feds. This is the problem with the federal government and their public schools. They don't teach the students about the constitution and what it means, so when those students become of voting age, they will vote in a manner which tends to strengthen the federal government. The courts and the states don't seem to mind all that much in many cases.
However, there are still glimmers of hope and sparks of freedom out there. We can see this in the Heller decision and the Nordyke decision, where the courts have gone a little further than they had recently in protecting "some" of our rights. I view the federal government as still operating beyond where it was ever intended to. This is directly related to how voters have managed to sway policies to involve the federal government in more and more of our private lives. That is where the courts and the constitution are supposed to limit the powers of the feds, but it's not working as well as it was hoped for by the founders.
Yes, one man one vote, but a constitution hovering over those votes to make sure that the majority doesn't vote away the rights of the "people". Also, a constitution that specifically spells out that the federal government has limited powers and the states and "the people" also have the powers which are not ceded to the feds. This is the problem with the federal government and their public schools. They don't teach the students about the constitution and what it means, so when those students become of voting age, they will vote in a manner which tends to strengthen the federal government. The courts and the states don't seem to mind all that much in many cases.
However, there are still glimmers of hope and sparks of freedom out there. We can see this in the Heller decision and the Nordyke decision, where the courts have gone a little further than they had recently in protecting "some" of our rights. I view the federal government as still operating beyond where it was ever intended to. This is directly related to how voters have managed to sway policies to involve the federal government in more and more of our private lives. That is where the courts and the constitution are supposed to limit the powers of the feds, but it's not working as well as it was hoped for by the founders.
madmo44mag
New member
Well Tennessee you may have a point there.
I need to ponder that a while, but it has merit.
And trust me - we are on the same side just less than a 1/2 row apart. LOL!!!!
Tennessee Gentleman
New member
USAFNoDak said:
Maybe, or maybe the world has changed sufficiently since 1789 to warrant such extensions of power. One thing is for sure, the Fed will operate as far as we allow it to.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Dear Lord - if a moderator sees a nightmare thread it will be the UN invading us to stop states from secession. Rather have the Zombies attack.
Michael Bane (a fine gentleman) has an excellent point. I've always thought that a focus on the positives of firearms ownership has more traction than saying if I can't have a gun I want some disruptive and apocalyptic end of the current Union.
Michael Bane (a fine gentleman) has an excellent point. I've always thought that a focus on the positives of firearms ownership has more traction than saying if I can't have a gun I want some disruptive and apocalyptic end of the current Union.
vranasaurus
New member
No one is saying that some international organization will step in and keep the union together.
But the international community is unlikely to recognize the independence of some seceding state(s). Without international recognition any seceding state will struggle to survive.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Yeah, Israel, and Taiwan have been on the brink of collapse for decades...
There are certainly circumstances where a country can survive with no problem with limited official recognition. I really don't think that would be Texas's problem.
vranasaurus
New member
The only people that don't recognize Israel are a few muslim countries.
And as for Taiwan, I doubt they would be in the position they are in without tremendous military aid that comes from the United States. The United States recognizes Taiwan's sovereignty in all but name. I doubt China or anyone else with a substantial military capcity is going to rush in and provide aid to a secessionist government in the US.
And as for Taiwan, I doubt they would be in the position they are in without tremendous military aid that comes from the United States. The United States recognizes Taiwan's sovereignty in all but name. I doubt China or anyone else with a substantial military capcity is going to rush in and provide aid to a secessionist government in the US.
D.Delozier
New member
For those who say to use your vote to change things, I can only say your vote changes nothing. With our political system you have 2 choices in front of you, you can vote for Crook-A or Scumbag-B , The only real choice here is where do you want your money to go? The mid income people like me and a large chunck of the rest of this country,that shoulder most of the tax burden here only have to choose- Reps. they take my money and give it to rich people and big companies in the form of tax breaks for them. Dems- take my money and give it to Bums and welfare suckers. So I ask, where's the party thats looking out for the poor slob in the center (ie ME!) nowhere to be found as far as I can see! Or maybe I'm just getting jaded in my older age,But I fear I have lost faith in our system all together. I dont think it can be fixed the corruption and greed has spread too deeply to ever be removed I'm affraid.
CortJestir
New member
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
Our system still works. We still are/have one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, countries/economies/armies. People should stop taking this country for granted and realize just how good you have it here. Seceding just because some radicals in one party are a bunch of sore losers solves nothing. Vote, write your congresspeople, contribute and make your voice heard. Aside from Molon Labe, the Spartans also said "He who shouts loudest and longest wins." If we shout loud enough, things will change in 2010, hopefully.
vranasaurus
New member
And let's not forget the American Revolution was preceded by mnay years of the colonial governemnts and leaders pleading with the king to redress the colonial grievances. They shouted a long time before resorting to the sword. And the key difference between them and us is that they had no vote or voice in parliament while we have substantial rights to vote and be heard.
If you cannot convince a sufficient number of your countrymen to vote your ideas victorious how do expect to convince a sufficient number to fight your ideas victoriuos in a bloody war. It is far easier to convince most Americans to get off their fat asses and vote than it is to fight a bloody war, just ask any armed service recruiter.
D.Delozier
New member
As I said ,vote for who? nobody's going to do anything to change things. sure they all promise the moon and the stars but as soon as they get elected they go right back to pandering to thier own special interest groups,all of them. I'll share a short firsthand story with you all, I work as a self employed builder for the last 3 years I've been flipping houses for a retired couple that moved here from D.C she was a loan Exc. He was a Contract lawyer/lobbyist.
In his house I've seen pics of him with everybody whos anybody in D.C ,once while we were BSing at the job I asked him are there any politicians in washington that really truely care about whats best for the country,He looked me right in the eye and said " I know this is not what you want to hear but no there is not, sure you get the occasional freshman/rookie congressman or senator that thinks they're gonna change the world they quickly get pulled into good ol boy network or they just fade away as in dont get re elected. Its all about money who has it and who wants it "
And thats straight from the horses mouth, this man made a life long carrear in the inner circle of this nest of crooks,He knows all too well how things work there,I have'nt been the same since that coversation. I feel more hopeless than ever before in my life, sad to say.
In his house I've seen pics of him with everybody whos anybody in D.C ,once while we were BSing at the job I asked him are there any politicians in washington that really truely care about whats best for the country,He looked me right in the eye and said " I know this is not what you want to hear but no there is not, sure you get the occasional freshman/rookie congressman or senator that thinks they're gonna change the world they quickly get pulled into good ol boy network or they just fade away as in dont get re elected. Its all about money who has it and who wants it "
And thats straight from the horses mouth, this man made a life long carrear in the inner circle of this nest of crooks,He knows all too well how things work there,I have'nt been the same since that coversation. I feel more hopeless than ever before in my life, sad to say.
Tennessee Gentleman
New member
Maybe most politicians are out for themselves and that is why we have groups like the NRA to make sure they do what we want. Because no matter how you cut it they want to keep their jobs and that is always priority number one. IF they don't as did several in 1994 when they voted for the AWB. In 1995 they lost there seats and Clinton himself acknowledged that in a State of the Union.
Anyway, what other sane options do you have?
Anyway, what other sane options do you have?