Tacoma Mall CCW guy speaks
- Thread starter riverkeeper
- Start date
rapier144,
No worries, non taken. I have the same feelings as you about that part of our history. I believe, no matter how you feel about what our government did there, those men on the ground giving their lives should never have had to take what they did from their own people. It was shameful. For one thing, if you don't agree with it, the men on the ground are the last ones that should hear about it. They have no say at all in what was going on. If they had, things would have turned out a lot different, you can bet on that!
No worries, non taken. I have the same feelings as you about that part of our history. I believe, no matter how you feel about what our government did there, those men on the ground giving their lives should never have had to take what they did from their own people. It was shameful. For one thing, if you don't agree with it, the men on the ground are the last ones that should hear about it. They have no say at all in what was going on. If they had, things would have turned out a lot different, you can bet on that!
U.S.SFC_RET
New member
Reacting to the Sudden and Unexpected=Training&Accuracy
For the Victim it is a shame he was wounded. My hat is off to him. Due to the suddeness of the situation I don't think any one of us would actually be as prepared as we would like to be. Reduce your chances of failure and train with your firearm. Gain the necessary confidence you need and get through actual training. You don't need to pay a ton of money to go to the expensive courses to do it. Use this forum. Yes accuracy does matter but what I hear all over these boards are headshots, headshots. Accuracy isn't about headshots 95% of the time. People have the misconcieved idea that to be proficient with a pistol you have to "QUICK DRAW MCRAW AND SHOOT WITH INCREDIBLE TALENT". Nothing could be further from the truth. To be good with a pistol is to shoot CENTER MASS, that means in my book from the diaphram area on up into the torso region. For a Pistol If you can Shoot That kind of Target Consistantly and Repeatedly THAT IS ACCURACY. Don't lose sight while training with a pistol because your goals you set are very reachable using this kind of advice.
For the Victim it is a shame he was wounded. My hat is off to him. Due to the suddeness of the situation I don't think any one of us would actually be as prepared as we would like to be. Reduce your chances of failure and train with your firearm. Gain the necessary confidence you need and get through actual training. You don't need to pay a ton of money to go to the expensive courses to do it. Use this forum. Yes accuracy does matter but what I hear all over these boards are headshots, headshots. Accuracy isn't about headshots 95% of the time. People have the misconcieved idea that to be proficient with a pistol you have to "QUICK DRAW MCRAW AND SHOOT WITH INCREDIBLE TALENT". Nothing could be further from the truth. To be good with a pistol is to shoot CENTER MASS, that means in my book from the diaphram area on up into the torso region. For a Pistol If you can Shoot That kind of Target Consistantly and Repeatedly THAT IS ACCURACY. Don't lose sight while training with a pistol because your goals you set are very reachable using this kind of advice.
Jack Malloy
New member
One thing to keep in mind vis a vis training vs no training and combat mindset.
Back during the Vietnam war, the US military commissioned a study that showed that during combat something like one half the soldiers being fired upon did not even return fire.
Apparently, for some folks its not that easy to shoot at a human being, even if he is shooting at you.
I think we all probably know somebody who froze up during deer season. Its possible to freeze up during combat. Even if you are trained.
Something to ponder upon.
Back during the Vietnam war, the US military commissioned a study that showed that during combat something like one half the soldiers being fired upon did not even return fire.
Apparently, for some folks its not that easy to shoot at a human being, even if he is shooting at you.
I think we all probably know somebody who froze up during deer season. Its possible to freeze up during combat. Even if you are trained.
Something to ponder upon.
too many choices!?
New member
You want to develop a,"hard heart", mindset?
Then picture shooting YOUR Father, to save YOUR Mother...I mean literally see it...Sounds sick, but if have the mindset that you could,"off", your own Dad, shooting ANY threat should be no problem
...
PS-Why are you looking at me like that?
Like I don't know I have issues
Then picture shooting YOUR Father, to save YOUR Mother...I mean literally see it...Sounds sick, but if have the mindset that you could,"off", your own Dad, shooting ANY threat should be no problem
...PS-Why are you looking at me like that?
Like I don't know I have issuesCapt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
This is, unfortunately, a valid scenario. I know first hand of this happening
. The shooter involved was cleared of any charges, but he will be in some serious counseling for the rest of his life. This only drives home the gravity of the use of deadly force.Jack, thanks for the link. Best write up that I have read, and you are right, there are some good lessons to be learned and the writer did a great job of outlining them.
Capt. Charlie, congratulations on your position as "Staff". I always find your postings well written and well thought out. I think you make a valuable contribution to this forum.
So far as the mall shooting, I posted earlier that those who wish to make a tangible contribution can do so to the medical fund. To each his own, but I think that sending a small check is a greater contribution than expounding on what was right or what was wrong. I think by now, most of us have figured that out.
John
Charlotte, NC
Capt. Charlie, congratulations on your position as "Staff". I always find your postings well written and well thought out. I think you make a valuable contribution to this forum.
So far as the mall shooting, I posted earlier that those who wish to make a tangible contribution can do so to the medical fund. To each his own, but I think that sending a small check is a greater contribution than expounding on what was right or what was wrong. I think by now, most of us have figured that out.
John
Charlotte, NC
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
John28226
Thanks.
Thanks.
DNS ~
I absolutely agree with your main point, which is that in order to end up in court, you first have to survive the encounter. First things first!
That's one reason, perhaps the major reason, why I think it is so important to become as informaed as possible about legal issues before you get involved in a deadly force encounter. If McKown had known Washington state law very well, he would have known that while brandishing is illegal, he would not have been guilty of "brandishing" in that situation simply because it is expressly legal to display your firearm in defense of yourself or another person -- whether you shoot or not. The worry about "brandishing" in a mall might have occurred to him, but with just a little better grasp of the law, he'd have discounted the thought and gone on with doing the job.
If he'd had more training, he would not only have had a better grasp of tactics, but during the course of his training he would have been exposed to a lot of different scenarios, which would give him lots of ethical and legal food for thought which he could think through at his leisure. For instance, he might have had opportunity to consider various angles of fire suitable for crowded situations -- or to consider whether he would fire or flee in such a situation. He might have had an opportunity to bat around the idea of firing at someone who wasn't a stereotypical "bad guy," such as a female or someone who looked like "just a kid."
As you say, the time to worry about such stuff isn't in the heat of battle. And yet, if you don't arm yourself with knowledge beforehand, in the heat of battle is exactly when you will be worrying about it.
But if you wait to think about such things until you are in the heat of battle, "what are the lawyers are going to say?" might be the last thing you ever worry about.
pax
Forewarned is forearmed.
XavierBreath
New member
Double Naught Spy
New member
Motivational speaking?
"The Art of Verbal Judo in Disarming a Nut Shooting People in the Mall, What Has Worked for Me."
"Carrying a Gun to Protect Others Means Not Having to Draw it During a Shooting."
"The Use of a Handgun as Body Armor and Other Survival Tips."
"A Gun in the Hand and Behind Cover is Worth More than a Gun in the Pocket and Standing in the Open When Confronting an Active Shooter."
Yep, no half way miracles for God. That is why McKown is alive right now. Getting feeling back and maybe learning to walk again will be gravy.
Can you just imagine how bad things would have been had Maldonado been at the mall and shooting people with the intention of doing them harm? Lucky for all that he didn't want to hurt anyone.
"The Art of Verbal Judo in Disarming a Nut Shooting People in the Mall, What Has Worked for Me."
"Carrying a Gun to Protect Others Means Not Having to Draw it During a Shooting."
"The Use of a Handgun as Body Armor and Other Survival Tips."
"A Gun in the Hand and Behind Cover is Worth More than a Gun in the Pocket and Standing in the Open When Confronting an Active Shooter."
Yep, no half way miracles for God. That is why McKown is alive right now. Getting feeling back and maybe learning to walk again will be gravy.
Can you just imagine how bad things would have been had Maldonado been at the mall and shooting people with the intention of doing them harm? Lucky for all that he didn't want to hurt anyone.
last_stand
New member
something else to think about...
I didn't read every reply, but I scanned and I think the general consenses is, the gentleman made some mistakes, but we can understand why. I've done some thought on what it would be like to take a human life, and will admit that the prospect of shooting a kid isn't a pleasing thought to dwell on.
However, insert yourself as the man with the concealed gun. Suppose one of the other victims would have died. Would the knowledge that you could have saved their life weigh on your mind more than the mental pain of shooting an armed bad guy? Personally, my familys safety would come first, then mine, and saving unknown innocents is a distant third, I know its harsh but its honest. I wouldn't do anything that would turn an attackers attention on me unless I was %1000 certain I could end the situation. I know thats easy to say from here but thats how I feal at the moment.
I didn't read every reply, but I scanned and I think the general consenses is, the gentleman made some mistakes, but we can understand why. I've done some thought on what it would be like to take a human life, and will admit that the prospect of shooting a kid isn't a pleasing thought to dwell on.
However, insert yourself as the man with the concealed gun. Suppose one of the other victims would have died. Would the knowledge that you could have saved their life weigh on your mind more than the mental pain of shooting an armed bad guy? Personally, my familys safety would come first, then mine, and saving unknown innocents is a distant third, I know its harsh but its honest. I wouldn't do anything that would turn an attackers attention on me unless I was %1000 certain I could end the situation. I know thats easy to say from here but thats how I feal at the moment.
Quote:
I'm not casting aspersions on this guy, but I think what we're seeing is his total lack of training.
Agreed 100%< Standing on a firing line shooting prepairs you for nothing. I had an uncle that was a USMC drill instructor. I asked him about the yelling and screaming, especially when the recruit is sleeping. He said it was to train them to act under extreem stress. You won't be able to copy that, but you can copy many of the physiological conditions of stress.
I'm not casting aspersions on this guy, but I think what we're seeing is his total lack of training.
Agreed 100%< Standing on a firing line shooting prepairs you for nothing. I had an uncle that was a USMC drill instructor. I asked him about the yelling and screaming, especially when the recruit is sleeping. He said it was to train them to act under extreem stress. You won't be able to copy that, but you can copy many of the physiological conditions of stress.
Major Kong
New member
S.L.A. Marshall (a war journalist) wrote a book about combat behavior based on his experiences in WW II. It was his assertion that most soldiers do not fire thier rifles during combat. His theory was fear of killing prevented soldiers from doing what they were sent there to do. Marshall's findings are controversial, but many combat veterans agree with him.
I've never been in combat, but was in a two situations where I thought I was going to die (in the cockpit).
For me, it brought a moment of clarity I can sharply recall twenty years later. I was able to act quickly and got myself (and my crews) out of the situation.
In another situation, I was in an aircraft that had a major electrical problem. It was pretty nerve racking because I was over a major city (no open fields). I got to the closest airport, and had a straight in approach (because I declared an emergency) - with all of the distractions, I went through my landing checklist, reported the gear down and locked and heard my copilot say "Whoa, check again." Sure enough, the gear was up and locked. I would have sworn in a court that I was CERTAIN the gear was down. The accident board would not have been kind.
My point is that stress does things to people. I was an exceptionally well trained pilot and a fairly good one.
I'm almost positive I could drop a guy shooting a rifle in a mall, but just "almost."
I've never been in combat, but was in a two situations where I thought I was going to die (in the cockpit).
For me, it brought a moment of clarity I can sharply recall twenty years later. I was able to act quickly and got myself (and my crews) out of the situation.
In another situation, I was in an aircraft that had a major electrical problem. It was pretty nerve racking because I was over a major city (no open fields). I got to the closest airport, and had a straight in approach (because I declared an emergency) - with all of the distractions, I went through my landing checklist, reported the gear down and locked and heard my copilot say "Whoa, check again." Sure enough, the gear was up and locked. I would have sworn in a court that I was CERTAIN the gear was down. The accident board would not have been kind.
My point is that stress does things to people. I was an exceptionally well trained pilot and a fairly good one.
I'm almost positive I could drop a guy shooting a rifle in a mall, but just "almost."
Jack Malloy
New member
Back around Vietnam the US Army did a study and found that something like only 40 percent of the soldiers under fire even fired back. The majority would point their rifles and their fingers froze on the trigger.
>>S.L.A. Marshall (a war journalist) wrote a book about combat behavior based on his experiences in WW II. It was his assertion that most soldiers do not fire thier rifles during combat. His theory was fear of killing prevented soldiers from doing what they were sent there to do. Marshall's findings are controversial, but many combat veterans agree with him.
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>>S.L.A. Marshall (a war journalist) wrote a book about combat behavior based on his experiences in WW II. It was his assertion that most soldiers do not fire thier rifles during combat. His theory was fear of killing prevented soldiers from doing what they were sent there to do. Marshall's findings are controversial, but many combat veterans agree with him.
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