Tacoma Mall CCW guy speaks

I feel very bad for the guy, but come on. It could have been a lot worse.
He could have taken a shot at the kid with the rifle, missed and hit an innocent bystander.
Then ALL of us CCW guys would be up $#!+ creek.
When in doubt, don't whip it out.....
 
I don't feel bad for the guy one bit. If you're to stupid enough to try and talk to someone that is shooting up the place you deserve whatever you get. Hell at least wait until he has to reload before having a conversation with him!
 
I feel bad for the guy too

...but I would hope that looking at somebody walking through a mall with an AK knockoff might overcome the "Opie Taylor" recognition. It is sad but true that we cannot afford anymore to be frozen into inaction or to look at a person who is clearly hurting others and say "Oh, no, that can't be" and then NOT ACT.

Maybe I'd do the same, I don't know...and I can't really know until I would be there. But he could have saved lives, and could have kept his own life intact had he shot. We need to soberly consider all this as well as replaying the actual mechanics of the scenario, to hopefully be mentally/psychologically aware of the issues and our feelings as well as the "roll to the right, get behind cover" kind of stuff.

Truthfully, I think I feel sorriest for the shooter's parents, who are probably wishing a large hole would just swallow them up for good. :(

Springmom
 
I must second the books by Grossman. I read them both and do feel that they are a must read for anyone who carries for self protection. They were first reccommended to me at an Insights class a couple years ago and I got them as soon as I could find them. I now bring them with me for reference when I teach my own self defense classes. You owe it to yourselves to be as informed and prepared as possible.

Stay Safe everyone!!
 
Third on Grossman's books. (At least On Combat, haven't read the others.)

I don't agree with him on everything he says, but there are some valuable insights. Definitely worth reading.
 
xavierbreath said:
There is a lot to this taking a life stuff that is never discussed. In the stress of the moment, it is not as easy as many believe.


Sure, I can believe that in an ambiguous circumstance, it might be hard to pull the trigger.

I don't believe, though, that if someone were clearly threatening my LIFE, or had just murdered someone with me witnessing the act, that I would have a problem shooting and killing him, or living with myself afterwards.

And if I did, I would seek appropriate counseling, which I know there is no shame in doing.


-azurefly
 
I'm not casting aspersions on this guy, but I think what we're seeing is his total lack of training. If I had to guess, I'd say this guy has not been trained much if at all. He's making me think about my current level of (non) training.

To me, it looks like his problem was that he was trying to think through the big questions about this situation too late, as the situation was already on top of him. He reverted to the level of his training, to quote a popular chestnut around here.
 
my question: were he or his loved ones being threatened or were they out of sight and behind cover?

i personally am not going to confront a semi auto rifle with a handgun face-on. i don't get the impression this man was being threatened. maybe i read it wrong. i am not in law enforcement and will leave that to the guys that get paid for it. as far as the other innocents in the area, well, they should have armed themselves. my responsibility is to myself and those near to my heart.

i'm not second guessing the guy. just saying what i would do. i hope.
 
two questions: 1) Did the man that was shot have any training or military experinence? and 2) Was he the first one shot or had the BG fired already?
 
Was he the first one shot or had the BG fired already?
In almost all accounts, including his own, McKown was not the first person shot.
I doesn't appear he had any military experience, but I may be wrong.
 
Judging by his expressed attitude and actions, I believe McKown had little or no training. Sounds like he started off with the right idea--get a CCW to protect himself and others--but he never completed the job--train yourself. Sadly, I've too often see people who do exactly that: assume that just having the gun itself is sufficient to provide security. Actually, it's just one of many components.

Every self-defense firearms training I've attended, including my local CCW class, has warned people to take cover if they can. Talking to an armed man who has already fired shots, whether you've seen him hit anyone or not, is a bad idea. A pistol is generally no match for a rifle, but it's better than nothing, so holstering your best hope is also a bad idea. Leaving cover so you can confront, unarmed, someone who is firing shots? Not good. McKown had to at least believe this whack-job was the shooter and not the police, else he would not have verbally tried to stop him. So his actions make no sense.

McKown didn't deserve to be shot, so for that reason I feel for the guy. But he is an example of what NOT to do in this kind of situation. If he wasn't prepared to deal with the situation, he should have laid low, hoped for the best, and waited it out rather than draw attention to himself. Instead, he did exactly the wrong thing at the wrong time.
 
Don Gwinn said,
I'm not casting aspersions on this guy, but I think what we're seeing is his total lack of training.

Don, you are a kind man.

As near as I can tell from McKown's own statements, he should be the poster boy for NOT how to respond as a CCW person. In reading McKown's accounts, I am having trouble figuring out anything he did correctly. Heck, from his own accounts, it does not appear that the gunman even knew McKown had a gun as McKown was dropped by the gunman before he had a chance to draw it to use. Sure, he drew it early on, then tucked it in his belt because he didn't want to get in trouble for brandishing in the mall.

You know, this is one of those examples where McKown probably had a little knownledge that screwed with his mind. McKown stupidly let a fear of legal consequence for brandishing override he thoughts to have the gun out and ready to use in a dynamic shooting situation. I will never understand why people are more fearful of potential/possible future minor legal problems than they are in fear for their own lives.

So the gunman shot McKown and continued to shoot McKown as McKown fell. It sounds like the gunman had better training than McKown and continued his followup shots until he felt McKown was neutralized.

I don't see where McKown or the other supposed CCW folks who didn't draw their guns either actually put up any resistence such that it caused the gunman to change tactics or stop shooting.

I really liked the part how he had planned to crawl after the gunman, but those other people stopped him. I am sure that after being shot several times and crippled, he would have been a force with which to contend, so much more power than before he was shot.
 
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It appears to me that Mr. Mckown lost that fight before it started. I don't think he prepared himself mentally to carry a deadly weapon. While one never knows how they will behave in certain instances until it happens, mental conditioning ( although training is up there with it) is probably the most important preparation for this sort of thing. I feel bad for him, but all things considered I think it turned out as well as it could have given said circumstances.
 
Said he would have had to shoot the "Kid" in the head. When a "Kid" picks up a weapon like this one had, he ceases to be a "Kid".

There are 58,000 names on a wall in Washington, DC (some who I served with) and a fair number of them were killed by "just kids".
 
There are 58,000 names on a wall in Washington, DC (some who I served with) and a fair number of them were killed by "just kids".

Sadly, a fair number of them were just kids themselves.
 
..so what if it was a kid..kids kill people too...too bad about the shot man..why would he get into the open with someone opening fire and tell him to stop????:confused: :confused: :confused: he should have kept his mouth shut and stayed behind something....you only give a shooter-killer a verbal warning when you got a bead on him..good grief...'just shoot me'!!..he obviously wasn't thinking at all..armchair or not..I'm not going to stand in the open with a gunman nearby...I am not that self-destructive...if I had a clear shot I would have killed the punk...so long as I was fairly sure no bystander behind wouldn't get hit...but some people may react well in a panic situation and some might not...
 
Woodland
i have to disagree Those that gave their lives for us were MEN!They earned that respect from me.

I totally agree with you. I was simply trying to portray that there are some circumstances where being "just a kid" ceases to be a deciding factor in the situation. When you are in that type of situation, age means nothing, no matter which side you are on. It is life or death. I meant no disrespect to those men who did what they did. I have nothing but the highest respect for anyone who has paid that price. They are all men in my book too.
 
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