Tackling Active Shooters as Self Defense

In a fight for your life, you use what you brung or have at hand. If bare hands are all you have then that is what you use.

My one experience was with an armed intruder into our Condo at Squaw Valley, CA. The guy entered the bedroom from an outside balcony. I bull rushed him under the weapon and pitched him into a snow bank from the second floor.

Heavy crockery plates are excellent Frisbee.s. They also do an amazing amount of damage when they strike a body.

You need to always be aware of potential adversaries. Conversely you need to look for potential weapons as you check for exits.
 
In high school I was a defensive tackle on my football team. I knocked down running backs, receivers, quarterbacks, and blocked kicks.

Now I am old dog with a bad back, the past week or so have been walking with the assistance of a cane (walking stick).

This morning I took my child to a medical appointment and then dropped my little beauty off at school (1st grade). The kids were just sitting down for lunch. If an active-shooter had burst in I could not rush him, my back won't cooperate. And my handguns were left in the car, no CCW allowed in the school.

All I could do is absorb bullets and hope I stopped enough to save my child.
 
I've played out these scenarios in my head quite often. I like to think that situation dependant, I would have the gonads to confront the shooter with my barehands if no escape or other tools of violence were available. One thing I try to live by when dealing with threats was taught to me by some of my former NCO's. "Speed, surprise, and violence of action...' as well as situational awareness. If it's a guy around my size and is with in close proximity, I *think* a good bear hug from behind and tossing him back on his head might disrupt him enough to at least get the gun out of his hands. Pressure points and soft spots would be a quick target. *IF* if I manage to get him to the ground, a good elbow or punch to the nose might increase these odds. Things to consider however is what direction is the shooter in relation to me, what is the intent of the shooter, and what environment is this in? For me personally, a lot of it dependant on whether or not there will be collateral damage from my actions, or lack thereof. Will your actions if failed escalate his force against others? I value my life very much, but I also value others. If it's a daycare or something, you can bet your sweet cheeks I am going to try everything in my capacity to do something. If it's in a food court in a mall and I'm 4 stores down theres not much of a chance me running towards the guy or even trying to sneak up on him will work.

Another thing to note. What is he using as a weapon? Manipulating a rifle/shotgun out of his hands while keeping the gun not pointed at you would certainly be easier than a handgun.

This is ALL pure speculation on my part. There are so many ways to cut this pie, and I honestly have no idea how I would react in a given situation. At the very least however, contemplating it is a form of preparation.

-Max
 
In some combative classes, KISS was the rule. Forget pressure points and soft spots. If you get the guy down, pound him the head repeatedly.

The key to all the tackling is distance. The successful folks could close.

At VT, a student trying the classic football tackle took multiple rounds and died. Other students have taken a round in a nonvital and got to the shooter.

Another argument for FOF - in one, an current Army vet - vaporized me when I decided to go for him. In another, I disarmed someone. Of course, the charge of the FOG may leave something to be desired.
 
The successful folks could close.
Click to expand...

Right, and I will state again that this is a dangerous tactic and one that is best used smartly. Many of the more successful events where this has been used has been when the shooter either had a malfunction or was reloading. If you charge an active shooter with a loaded gun who knows you are coming, expect the shooter to try to shoot you.
 
Glenn, I agree with you very much. The more 'primal' (for lack of better words) should be key. However, some soft spots are easy targets, such as the nose or solar plexus. A running and diving tackle, much like a football tackle leaves a lot of time for you to become a target. A bear hug and wrestling style toss IMO would be much more effective. Again, time and place While certainly not as crucial a situation, I encountered some of these things as a bouncer in a college bar. The difference between a guy who knows you are there and a guy who doesn't when you try to grab them up is very different. I think a huge key is trying to disrupt their OODA loop. Regardless, aside from avoidance all together the best bet is some cover and a gun.
 
OODA Loop, Fruit Loop, Loopty Loop. If you are worried about the OODA Loop, then you are worried about the wrong thing. OODA Loops are being continuously disrupted and reset all the time with new stimulus/information. If you are trying to disrupt some bad guy's OODA Loop, then yours has already been severely disrupted.
 
On the ABC news, one argument for 10 round limits was that an inexperienced maniac might take as much 4 sec to reload as compared to one second of a skilled shooter, that gives you time to tackle.

That happened on the LIRR shooting that sent Rep. McCarthy into the antigun movement.

4 sec is probably enough time. But you have to have your act together and unfortunately many freeze up.
 
Yep, and in the Gifford's shooting, tackling was accompanied by somebody slamming a chair into Loughner first, IIRC, undoubtedly slowing his reload.

You probably can't decide to attack after you realize the shooter is reloading and have high expectations of being successful. That decision likely needs to be made in anticipation of the reload so that it may be launched as soon as the reload is recognized.
 
I'm voting with Mleake on this one. Break off the tabletop and get behind it.
Launch the silverware! Make it rain debris. Don't stick around for return fire.
Be that animal.
 
protect life rICHARD dONSTON

tackling works when a distraction occurs that buys you the time to cross the distance.
Im former law enforcement. for the question of do you shoot a shooter in the crowd that is firing at a principle, at the peril of striking a by-stander. short answer is yes. to save a life or lives.
Now, you can spin a bunch of circumstantial scenarios some of wich may lead to "no", and many more that are maybe's.
To protect life, and acting in good faith, it is never wrong to use deadly force. The shoot scenario will be evaluated based on circumstances. THIS IS WHY YOU MUST HAVE A PERSONAL POLICY AS TO WHEN YOU WILL USE DEALY FORCE. BEFORE YOU GO OUT THE DOOR. To save a life is mine.

police do not respond so quickly. The fight would have been over for sometime by the time they get there. If you shoot someone, wait at the scene, reholster your weapon, and show your hands to police, comply with directions, and let them know you have a holstered weapon (in your waist band). FOLLOW DIRECTIONS.
wHEN THEY SECURE THE SCENE YOU HAVE QUESTIONS TO ANSWER. Explain what occured. If an overbearing cop puts unwarranted presure on you, its ussually a good time to ask for an attorney.
 
When I studied CQC we would fight over rubber guns a couple of things I noticed.
-A trained person could usually get out of the line of fire and strip a gun from an untrained person, if their was an opportunity.
-A trained gun holder could most always keep a person in the line of fire.
-A group could strip a gun from a trained person but the gun will probably be empty by the time they get it. The best thing a group could do is try to keep the gun low under chest cavities.

This was in rubber gun play land, so take it with a grain of salt.
 
If anyone should decide to practice gun take-aways with a training partner and a rubber gun - PLEASE - have the gun holder keep their finger OUT of the trigger guard. Essentially every gun take-away move is designed to or results in spraining or fracturing the finger if it's "in the hole". Cutting away the trigger guard is not a terrible idea, so the finger simply can't get bound up in there.


Sgt Lumpy
 
I am not going to tackle anybody.. If I can not escape danger, there might be a fight at some point but tackle is not part of any plan I have come up with.
 
While I appreciate the gun-biased bravado, the point here is that use of firearms is not always possible and not always prudent. More over, in cases of close proximity, it is often quicker to respond with means of force OTHER than the drawing and firing of a gun. This was the case, for example with the shootings of Reagan and of Oswald. By the time agents and officers had guns drawn, the shooters were already downed...and those were professionals drawing their guns.

Think about it. For most people in a crisis, the first and often longest delay in responding correctly is the delay that comes from the lack of recognition of what is going on, often spawned by a sense of disbelief that something could be going wrong or misconception about the nature of what is going on. That can last from a fraction of a second to several seconds.

Once proper recognition is made, then a decision to react occurs and this takes time. If the decision to draw and fire a gun is the decision made, then it will be for most folks who are not aware that they are going to be in a situation where they are about the draw and fire, 2-4 seconds time before they will get shots on target. Bear in mind that you general CCW person isn't a Quckdraw McGraw who practices drawing and firing at the range every week. Most haven't even been to the range this year, much less worked on their draw skills.

So as noted in the Northwood, MO church example I posted yesterday, if you are standing there in a service and a guy walks into the service and is standing next to you and starts shooting, do you really think the most timely action is going to be to draw and fire your own gun? You can do that in 2-4 seconds from the time you decide your course of action or you can be tackling him in less than 1. Which do you see as the one most apt to stop the shooter sooner from carrying out his intended goal?

Now if the shooter is across the room, street, etc., then sure enough, tackling may not be the best of options if you are indeed armed, but a lot of the shooters that are tackled are tackled early on and when they are in close proximity to the responding people, not all, but many based on reading over the examples here.
 
I'd say it all depends upon how close you are to the adversary and what physical barriers exist between the two of us. But at the end of the day, all things being equal, I'm going to trust my ability to draw, aim and fire my sidearm over my ability to play linebacker.
 
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