SWAT, equip. care and feeding

In point of fact, Longhair and I are Equally wrong. Right, Brother?


Ankeny,

I'll put the answer to that in your "Glock Convert" Thread.


If anyone has any last comments, get them in, as I feel a lock coming to this thread soon....

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited May 31, 1999).]
 
Rob,
Thanks for inferring there’s something profound in my post, however I must decline the
compliment.

1) I was not comparing SWAT to “my/our” CHL, I was comparing SWAT to a tool
which is capable of being both used and mis-used.

2) Never did I state or mean to imply that, “People who are fighting tooth and nail to be
able to defend themselves with any firearm/calibre/etc are at teh same time saying the
people who purposely walk into harms way may be too well armed or trained....”

3) Never did I state or mean to imply that SWAT or LEOs at any level do not deserve
better training and equipment. As stated months ago, I have provided free training to
LEOs and donated money for their equipment.

4) Therefore, as my intent was not as you interpreted it, I can not agree that my point of
view is ludicrous. If it makes you feel better, I would agree the point of view which you
expressed as mine was ludicrous. Please read my 12:30PM post for its stated viewpoint.

5) Apparently my lack of intelligence makes it difficult for me to make my point. Let me
try one more time. In my opinion, there is a difference between “purposely” walking into
harms way (which can denote extreme bravery and dedication) and:
- provoking a “use of force” confrontation;
- using more than necessary and reasonable force;
- abusing, injuring and killing people; and/or
- damaging, destroying, and/or stealing personal and private property.
ALL these things have been done by people representing Law Enforcement. The
damning part of this is the attitude on the part of some officers that it is their
unquestionable right to do any of this because of their job as LEOs. They are flat, 100%
wrong. They are a disgrace to Law Enforcement, a threat to our safety (and to our
nation), and the vast majority of honorable LEOs should throw these bums out of Law
Enforcement. (Ref para 5 in my 12:30 PM post.)

6) As far as training goes, I go for more training and support for Law Enforcement than
you would suspect. Not only the LEOs should be trained, but also the political hacks to
try to use Law Enforcement for their political gain rather than the mission most police
officers support with their heart and soul. But that’s a different story. As DC frequently
says, “Don’t get me started” on this subject.

7) I believe GLV had a major point (above)! Respect of thoughtful people is
earned - it can NOT be demanded and it is NOT automatic. When the abuse BY
officers is reduced, then the respect FOR officers will follow.
LEOs say they care for civilians so much they risk life and limb for us. Many LEOs do
that and more, but then many turn right around and tell us we are too stupid, ignorant, and
lacking in intelligence and in all ways UNentitled to even ask, “What happened?” or “Why
did you kill my wife?”
LEOs need to find a better cause for their self-worth than considering those they “serve
and protect” are unintelligent, stupid, idiots. Many, and I mean MANY civilians have had
a darned site harder experience than being a cop. (Ref the U.S. Army Nurse who was a
Japanese POW. Let your imagination run wild the get off those folks who *currently* are
“only civilians”.)
I will no longer stand by and be told I have no right to question Law Enforcement. I not
only have the right, I have the obligation. Until Rich tells me I no longer have the right to
do so on TFL, I will respond with my own “knee-jerk” defense of the people more
important than law enforcement officers, EMTs or any single-interest group - the U. S.
citizen.
I don’t mean to offend Kodiac, Rob, LEOs, or anyone else including the high priest of
HobNobbery (whoever that is!). So long as we do not exceed Rich’s level of
acceptable vituperation, I believe the various members of the discussion still are trying
honestly:
- to gain greater understanding of other equally valid viewpoints and/or
- to convince others of the validity of their own viewpoint..

In one speech given in Germany in the late 1930s, the speaker stated something to the
effect, “Hitler is Germany! Germany is Hitler!” Now relax, I’m not comparing anyone to
Hitler, OK? I am saying only that blind support of anything or anyone is antithetical to
the American values we espouse.
 
Rob, no one wants LEOs better trained than I do. If I did not want them well trained, I would not spend time training them. The better trained LEOs are, the less chance they will make one of those 'mistakes'.

I want them to be able to read, write, shoot, detect, and understand the law, and the rights of citizens. I want them to be able to quote the pertinent portions of the Constitution.

As for arms, anything LEOs can shoot in a RESPONSIBLE and COMPETENT manner. GLV
 
Dennis,

Sorry to have mis-interpreted your point. FWIW, I agree with everything you said in Point #5 above, and I'm glad that you agree with me on the point of view I described as being ludicrous.

Point #7 I found rather troubleing, though. there is a big difference (uh-oh, get teh dictionary..) between being stupid and being ignorant. If you aren't familar with something, you can be ignorant of it, but not be stupid or an idiot.
I hope you have not inferred from any of my posts that I think you are stupid. Nor, have I very often heard LEOs refer to a legitimate concern by calling someone "stupid.".. A phrase that I have heard very often is:
"They don't understand."
Not understanding comes from Ignorance.

I am not trying to stand in the way of your attempt to get some answers to your questions. I agree with others that this thread has reconciled everything that it is going to reconcile. I will keep coming back and going 'round and 'round if you want, but I think we should be above that.

I agree that some officers abuse their power.
I agree that most officers give other LEOs the benefit of the doubt, and some even lie for other officers.
I agree that the capabilities of SWAT have been misused on the federal level, and probably on the local level as well, though not on nearly the same scale.
Of all the well publicized "abuses" by local LEOs, the one guy I think was really out of line, without a doubt, is the admitted sodomizer up in NYC.
I do have similar discussions with the few LEOs I know that are not 100% pro-gun. I "waste" a lot of my time trying to get the opposite sides on this battle to see the other point of view. LEOs to understand that people need and should have arms for personnel defense, and Civil Libertarians to understand that LEOs need to be given some leeway in order to survive under the current political climate.

I think we all agree that LEOs need and should have as much training as possible. Often, that training is more limited by time than by money, but money is a big factor.

------------------
-Essayons
 
For those worried about the violation of constitutional rights...it has been ruled in Ohio that law enforcement can run random queries of license plates w/o reasonable suspicion or probable cause. Police officers can run random queries to insure plates are properly registered with the Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicles. When we run a plate, we get in return: the registration, including owner's name, address and social security number, and any wants on the vehicle, such as stolen or used in a felony, or any people associated with that vehicle who are wanted (ex., you let a friend of yours borrow your car and he got stopped for speeding and got a ticket in your car...later he gets arrested for ????? and fails to go to court, unfortunately for you his warrant gets attached to any vehicle and plate he is associated with.
 
Bingo, Rob! We have lift-off!
And none of us want a bunch of do-gooder civilians who REALLY have no understanding of law dogs' problems trying to reform SWAT. They should do it themselves.

If you and I disagree at all, I now understand it is very slight and probably only a matter of degrees. Thanks, thanks a LOT for hangin' in there. I really do appreciate it.
Dennis
 
Aah! Beat the lock!

After reading this thread, I'm swearing off dictionaries for the entire month of June ...

And, since we seem to have an entire pasture filled with dead horses, may I add that police / civilian (damn the argument) relations were a lot better before our absurd 'drug war' and its attendant seizures and other Constitutional transgressions. As I told a friend, many of us grew up with 'drive-by' shootings - they were on 'The Untouchables', on TV - regarding alcohol Prohibition ... Some things don't change.

We'll never resolve the SWAT / no-SWAT issue. But, I'm sure all of us are glad when we've got LEO's up all night responding to real problems with real BG's. As G. Gordon says, 'thank you for your service to our country'.

Regards from AZ
 
For all who are against SWAT teams or having police armed with the best they can get, I'd like you to step back a second and reflect on your attitude.
You don't want a group to exist because of a few bad apples. Because there have been a few abuses, you don't want any of them to have those nasty, "evil" guns, as opposed to the guns you can have. To me, that sounds just like the anti-gunners and their attitudes toward all of us "civilian" gunowners.
SWAT teams and their weapons are simply tools. If they are poorly selected or poorly trained, there will be problems. On the other hand, if used properly, they can be very effective and they can save lives.
Don't get me wrong, I also think that I should be able to purchase a selective fire weapon without having to pay an arm and a leg for it, but I don't begrudge SWAT.
Don't forget, the mission of your SWAT team and your local patrolman are different. Your average cop is expected to make an arrest and let the courts handle the rest. He doesn't need, nor should he have an MP5. The SWAT team is called out when there are known armed suspects. Meeting firepower with equal firepower is tactically unsound. If you want the best odds of surviving the encounter, you want overwhelming firepower on your side.
Until there is an obvious abuse of the power by local law enforcement, I'm in favor of SWAT teams and their being armed with the best we can afford. I want them going home to their families at night.

------------------
Dorsai
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal
weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the
monarch of all he surveys.
-- Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
 
I hear ya' Hiram!!! ;)

just for the record, before the thread gets locked, because it's taking some time to load now, let me state this:
1: the kind of stuff that Cincy is talking about is B.S.. running a tag for no reason other than to just look for an excuse to do a stop. If the people in the auto are not doing anything wrong, why do you feel you should run a tag! I feel this is wrong!!
2: I feel no knock, bust the door down, go in balls to wall, slam everyone on the ground w/ a knee to their neck searches are wrong!!
There are ways to get the bg other than this.
As I said before, anyone knocking my door down, is subject to gun fire!! Why would LEO's be surprised at this? I feel it's normal to protect one's self, when an intruder bust down your door.
3: Swat should be used for hostage rescue, counter-sniper ops, counter terrorist ops, and be trained and equiped accordingly.
4: I think that the search and seziures are B.S., and just a way for local LEA's to aquire money and equipment. I've heard the braggin' all too often,"look at all the stuff we've got now!! cars, money, etc....
Ok, now you know where I stand. FWIW. I have a brother-in-law that's a cop, I have friends
that are cops, and I tell them all the same things I just expressed here, it don't do any good, but I tell them anyway. I'm not anti-leo, i'm just against some of the ways they do things.
I'm through now Hiram!!!!! ;)

------------------
fiat justitia
 
Thank you Cincylawman for so completely answering the question I put to Rob. I must say, however, that courts have held all sorts of unconstitutional bs to be constitutional, including randomly accessing any information on me or my property.

Why would the police want or need my SS number? Are local LEOs now enforcing federal income redistribution schemes?

Go longhair!
 
Rob, God bless you!(or the deity or non-deity of your choice)

You try to educate 'em, and they just end up chewing the covers off the books. ;)

Was I being too "sensitive", or where some folks going into the "Rosie" zone? ;)

By the way, are you still holding your pistol the wrong way? ;) ;) :)

In the immortal words of Homer Simpson,

"Doh!"

------------------
David H. Wright
Bring this man a
goat and a bowl of fruit
 
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