• Anything ‘published’ on the web is viewed as intellectual property and, regardless of whether it displays a copyright symbol or not, is therefore copyrighted by the originator. The only exception to this is if there is a “free and unrestricted reuse” statement associated with the work.

    In order to protect our members and TFL from possible litigation, all members must abide by the following new rules:

    1. Copying and pasting entire articles from another site to TFL is strictly prohibited. The same applies to articles from print or other media, and to posting photographs taken of copyrighted pages or other media.

    2. Copyright law provides for “fair use” of portions of a copyrighted work. You can copy no more than a SINGLE paragraph from the article to your post (3 or 4 sentences at most).

    3. You must provide a link to the article along with the name of website. For example: ww.xxx.yyy/zzz (The Lower Thumbsuck Daily News).

    4. You must provide, in your own words, a brief summary of the article AND your reasons for believing it will be of interest to TFL members. Failure to do so may result in the thread being closed or your post being deleted as a “cut and paste drive by.”

    5. Photographs and other images are also copyrighted. "Hotlinking" of images (so that it appears in your message) from other sites is also prohibited unless you own rights to the image. If you wish to share an image, provide a clickable link to it.

    Posts that do not follow these new guidelines will be altered or deleted by staff. Members who continue to violate this policy may lose their posting privileges at TFL.

    Thank you for your cooperation and your participation in TFL, the leading online forum for firearms enthusiasts.

Suggestions for Envigorating L&P

Status
Not open for further replies.
If we start excluding members who are not aligned with the firearms debate on our sdide then there is no debate.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's what's being suggested. But it IS a firearms board, and (as the mods periodically point out) privately owned. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to expect people who join to have some interest in firearms, and a willingness to post in forums other than L&P. That's not a requirement that they should be on a given side in political debates, including ones about the 2nd amendment -- only that they should be prepared to engage in the general conversation.
 
The firearms debate is all about the legal and political. Debating the advantages of Glocks over Walthers; .45 over .41 mag; auto over wheelgun is all nice but there is no one out there on the anti-firearms side of the equation talking about that. The technical debate is just that -- technical.

The real debate that challenges and threatens our ability to own, possess, carry and shoot firearms is restricted entirely to the legal and political side of the equation. No anti-firearms group is talking about how they want firearms owners to carry the best manstopper, or the correct round for the application, or the best holster for concealment purposes. They are talking every day about how they are going to get their representatives (political) to pass laws (legal) against firearms and firearms owners.

Now, if the mods want to restrict the debates in L&P to only those L&P issues pertaining strictly to firearms and firearms abuse then that might be a way to stop the madness; ie: The "Sarah Palin wants national CCW laws enacted" vs "Sarah Palin: a woman for all seasons".

Simply restrict the threads to those subjects which actually affect firearms rights, abuses, police abuses where confined to firearm raids, firearm laws under consideration pro or con, etc. The subject matter simply got too diverse for the mods to keep up. I couldn't care less about Palin's baby unless there is a law that is in play restricting his right to own a firearm after he turns eighteen which won't happen for another seventeen years and seven months.
 
Last edited:
I have to say that the L&P forum was one reason why I frequented TFL more than THR
Click to expand...

Same here I visit THR very little since they shut down LP, While I have not read all threads in LP on this board I fail to see why it is necessary to shut it down. In most cases a few bad apples spoil the entire basket move them out and go on.

In a very hot political season they are going to be minor to serious disagreements most of this will pass late November after a few days of shouting over who won, all in all I see this as part of living if I see or read something that offends me I simply click the mouse, the mouse is a great stupid blocker.:)

Sorry but in my opinion anyone offended by writings on this board has very thin skin.
 
Jimpeel, I have corrected that statement to reflect what I was actually thinking, but once again failed to say it. It now reads:
Al said:
Let me start off by saying that the Legal and Political forum, in all probability will not be resurrected, in its current form. Politics has always been somewhat of a bane to the forum. This has been made extremely clear over the last year and a half.
Click to expand...
There.
 
I think this suggestion by TimRB was a good one:

Edit: Actually, my post (this one) illustrates a big part of the problem (for me at least)... a tendency to want to engage in one-line urination tournaments with others who have similar inclinations. Maybe a good rule would be to impose a 3-post limit (per poster) for any given L&P thread. That would encourage people to think carefully about what they post, and also would cause threads to come and go quickly.
Click to expand...

I also think the suggestion by PAX was a good one, too. He mentioned that folks should not be allowed to post in L&P unless they have made a certain number of posts elsewhere. I also think it would be nice if there were some way that someone could be limited so that no more than one half of their posts were in L&P. This would (hopefully) keep folks from posting who have no knowledge or interest in firearms, and who merely seem to frequent this board merely to push a political agenda and stir stuff up.
 
Thanks, Al.

I have been a member of TFL since 1999 and my posts cover 149 search pages.

I have nearly 4,000 posts since then even with the downtime associated with the shutdown in '03. This forced me to go to THR where I have nearly 3,000 posts.

Most, at least 98%, of my posts have been in the L&P forum of both sites.

I am a political animal. I appreciate firearms from the mechanical standpoint as I am a mechanical designer. I now only own one firearm for home protection. I don't do calibers, muzzle velocities, reloading, etc.

As to the legal and political, however, I am a very active person. I worked against Roberti-Roos in CA as a member of G.O.A.C. I stood up for hunting rights in the San Bernardino mountains. I was a member of G.O.A.L. in Massachusetts and fought against the AWB there. I supported CCW in NE while I was there. Here in CO I do what I can to support the pro-firearms forces.

I have appeared on live in-studio and on remote link talk radio shows. I have also been a caller on hundreds of occasions.

If all that is left of TFL is the technical then I will not be coming here very much.
 
Ban people who break the rules. Leave people alone who do not.

Problematic posters are problematic in every forum, not just L&P. Ban people who make personal attacks and are guilty of inflammatory pointless remarks from TFL as a whole. Trouble makers will be at a minimum within days and everyone else will be happier.

Set up a system so the mods can issue warnings that all mods can see, the way many states issue points on drivers licenses. Get to 10 points (or whatever) your gone.
 
I just came back after 4 days and found this thread for comments. Thanks for that.

The sudden closing of L&P was a bit curious to me. Mostly because I have been on many political type forums, and L&P was, by far, the most civil and respectful that I can remember. Is it always so? Of course not. When talking politics, a certain bit of "fire in the belly" on a particular topic may result in a post or two that we may wish we had not left up for others to read. But, that is the nature of political forums. I don't find such discourse a bad thing. Sometimes, I think guys visit L&P to vent a little bit about politics and legal issues. It is rare to meet someone in our day to day lives who are both (1) politically minded and (2) gun owners. In that regard, L&P has been a welcomed and wonderful addition to TFL.

Political forums are and will always have a bit of "rough" discourse. It should be expected and, even welcome, IMO. If you are looking to homogenize a group of people's thoughts, then don't bother with a political forum at all or any type of incarnation. There is a lot of passion in the typical American gun owner.

My humble suggestion? Warn the repeat offenders. Suspend them if they don't shape up. Ban them if you must. But keep the L&P. It is a rare and wonderful place for a politically minded gun owner to visit. There are not many other places like it.

Oh, and what is THR that other's have mentioned. Can someone private message me with details? Thanks.
 
+1 jimpeel, You express what I am thinking much better than I could.
Click to expand...

As much as I hate the ubiquitous "+1" post, this time I must agree.
While I generally post in other sections of this forum,and restrain myself, for the most part, from posting in L&P, I generally come here to read the political discussion first. Even though the debate is sometimes "spirited", it represents (to me) a diverse cross section of political views by folks from all walks of life. Just look at the plethora of professions, cultures, religions, oreintations, and backgrounds represented here. And most all share at least a passing interest in firearms. It gives me a window on the world that the broadcast media can never accomplish, because they are not focused toward firearms enthusiasts. I fail to see how free spirited debate can be considered "noise" as compared to the "signal" that the TV and radio spew. I fail to see why grown adults would be embarassed to have our views ( and differing opinions) open to public scrutiny.

And does it really change the "signal to noise ratio" that much to shut off political and legal debate while allowing unending numbers of caliber debates, platform arguements, and tacticool mall ninja scenarios?

My suggestion would be to continue business as usual, and stop making much adoo about nothing.

P.S. read my sig line closely.

Respectfully Submitted,

Dan Bruner
 
If at all possible, why not simply change the color of a poster's handle from the current Blue ala jimpeel to a lovely shade of Red when they are in peril of being expelled from the board for misconduct. It would be a flag to all of us that this person is on "probation". I know that I would not be pleased to log on and find jimpeel on the left side of the page.

The next step would be the simple disappearance of the poster from the board and all of their posts becoming the one word BANNED.
 
Anyone want to get back on topic and suggest some viable alternatives to the morass that L&P had become?
Click to expand...

To make things interesting:

1: Allow posting of threads which are closed to comment until the moderator has reviewed their subject material.

2: I've seen the three strike rule in other forums. In the header are listed the names of offenders with 1 or 2 strikes and then the offender is banned on the 3rd strike.

3: Add to the number of moderators. (Heinlein pointed out a half century ago the best way to stop the wolves was to make them into sheep dogs.) Or if you don't want to do that, start another class of user, the assistant moderator who has a half vote in closing a thread, or make all the senior users "junior deputies"...three junior deputies can vote to close a thread and its closed.

4: Allow users to "vote users off the island", ten votes gets a user banned. To make it more interesting votes could expire after 2 weeks and user-incited bans could expire after a month.

??
 
Not sure how this software works, but with http://www.dcscripts.com/ these guys a member can be put on probation. That means their posts do not go through untill approved by a mod.
It works as a way of cutting back on squirrely posts.

There is the problem for boards such as this that specialize. People that might be perfectly agreeable on firearms could be pretty nasty on political issues.

The idea of limiting the number of posts per thread strikes both ways. It limits the amount of drive-by one liners, but it also hobbles people who are making a genuine contribution to the thread.
This is another place where, if the software allows, more senior members would not have the three post limit.

More mods wouldn't hurt but they won't be needed after the election.
 
First...I would just like to say I am sorry for...

being someone who got a little carried away on a couple of occasions. I have not been posting here all that long but I can say I thoroughly enjoy TFL and the folks here. I agree with Musketeer that the election has brought things to a boil. I believe we are facing a crucial time in our history in this election. And until it is over I do not think we will be able to have legitimate conversation on these topics. They are simply too volatile. I would like to see this opened back up in the future...perhaps around February of next year when hopefully things have settled down because it is a very stimulating place to engage in exchanging ideas and views.

Moderators...I respect your decision and as I had already told the Bluesman I decided this week to stop posting in this area due to the very things that have led to it being closed. I am ashamed of the way I have gotten carried away a couple of times and allowed the emotion to get in the way of sound judgment. To this end even if you choose to keep it closed permanently this will still be a place I come to for advice with rifles etc.

Thanks,

Melvin Gilliam
 
Last edited:
You want more civility? Require posters to L&P to use their real names.
Click to expand...

Please NO.

There are posters who, while not doing anything illegal, may be violating a company policy and discussing it here.

There are posters who may be bringing up a subject and inadvertently find out they did something illegal (example: "You mean I broke the law giving my father who lives in FL a handgun!?!?"). While illegal behavior is NOT condoned here we all can understand that firearms laws have gotten confusing enough across this nation that someone could violate them and never know.

There are people who are located in very liberal areas and industries. The last thing they need is a string of firearms posts attached to their names. Is such persecution right? No. It happens though.

I am smack dab in liberal land and do not need some busybody coworker, child's teacher or other person running my name in google and finding a host of posts on everything from my political leanings to the proper selection of ammunition for use against people in a defensive shooting.

There are entirely legal and moral reasons to allow anonymity on the board. At the same time I can see the site owners knowing the EXACT name of the posters to assist with tracking down those who are willful criminals and keeping out the trash who might create name after name. In that spirit perhaps something like Gunbroker where a credit card is run but never charged to verify the real existence of a bidder can be instituted for those wishing to post in L&P. Even a simple $5 a year contribution to post in L&P seems reasonable to me to

1. Keep out the drive by posters.
2. Somewhat compensate for the added effort the mods must put in for L&P.
3. Provide a link to a REAL NAME so that when someone is banned they are REALLY BANNED.

Al,

Thank you for the modification of the post on L&P's future. I too was very put off when I saw it at first.

Robust political debate is a healthy thing. I use this forum and some others to test my positions and look at them in the mirror. Perhaps I am wrong, in which case I can learn that by analyzing opposing posts which make logical sense to me. I have learned much in L&P forums and hope others have derived the same benefit.

That said I still think restriction to solely 2A, shooting & self defense issues political and legal is warranted until November. Too many trolls have slunk out and tempers are too hot right now for the current systems to handle. Perhaps with some changes come 2012 such actions will not be needed but I think they are now. In the meantime shutting down discussion on the 2A L&P issues before an election stinks of McCain/Feingold (I know this is a private forum and what that entails.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top