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Suggestions for Envigorating L&P
- Thread starter Al Norris
- Start date
- Status
I fixed it for you. Look through any forum on this board and you'll see these same issues. This is the internet, where the inability to get punched in the nose allows one to be an expert on every subject, and insulting to boot.
Assuming that eliminating L&P may have been necessary, it was a necessary evil. There was a lot of crap thrown around but there was also a lot of actual information coming through. The board has lost a major mechanism for disputing propaganda and myth.
How about a challenge test? If someone posts a "fact," they back it up. If not, it gets pulled. If they persist, they get pulled. If they make a personal attacks, they get pulled.
Frankly, this should be extended to every aspect of the board. If you claim that you are superior to someone else because you can put all 5 through someone's eyehole and thus don't need a highcap, you should be required to meet up at a range with a member and demonstrate it.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
Ummm... make them go stand in the corner and consider the error of their ways? (Translation: yeah, ban them for a month or two, and do it fast.)
Ask a kindergarten teacher about this kind of behavior.
As a couple of people have now pointed out, one reason for the (childish!) incivility is that there's so much of it out there in the general culture, especially the political culture. The notion that politicians, journalists, and commentators ought to focus on facts and ideas rather than lies and invective has come to seem a bit old-fashioned. It's so much more satisfying to rant, and, unfortunately, appealing to people's fears -- and other emotions -- is politically effective.
The moderators try very hard to maintain some sort of standard of civility and of sensible discourse -- and I completely understand if they've come to feel, over the past few months, that it's like... oh, standing in the path of Hurricane Katrina and trying to turn it back. But a forum like this could -- in theory -- be a place where people who dislike this trend try, by example, to make the case that it doesn't have to be that way. It's probably a losing battle, in terms of the general culture, but if even a few people can be won over to the idea that it's at least as satisfying to make a point logically and respectfully as it is to try to make it by name-calling, fear-mongering, spreading malicious rumors, etc. -- then the effort seems to me to be worthwhile.
Me too. Check my thread count difference.
I understand the concept of a privately owned forum...which to me still seems to be an oxymoron. But I cant help but wonder at the product of our Founding Fathers, who in the midst of political discourse so vitriol and bickering infested that it will make your head spin, still managed to glean from that whirlwind of pettiness and personality conflicts the greatest of achievements from the greatest experiment in human history. Human discourse can be repugnant at its worst but amazing in it's capacity for evolution of thought.
I for one will miss the loss of a L&P forum here at TFL.
The issues are not unique to L&P. Outsiders probably recognize the topics in L&P more readily than in other forums, but insults, atttacks and juvenile behavior reflect poorly on TFL, its members, and gun owners, regardless of the forum in which they occur. Closing L&P does not address the underlying issues.
Something I would like to see going forward is a specific indication of what moderators think is problematic. Instead of immediately changing or deleting offensive posts, tag the offensive parts so everyone can see exactly what is unacceptable. While calls to "be good" are noble, more specific guidance appears to be needed.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
gc70
Interesting idea.
I suspect most people know when they're crossing the line -- it's just that they think they can get away with it. But I do like the idea of clarifying, by example, exactly what won't be tolerated. It would be a lot of work, though... and I could imagine that some people, the really juvenile ones, might even see it as a bit of a challenge: get their invective tagged by mods so it's really visible to all? :barf:
Interesting idea.
I suspect most people know when they're crossing the line -- it's just that they think they can get away with it. But I do like the idea of clarifying, by example, exactly what won't be tolerated. It would be a lot of work, though... and I could imagine that some people, the really juvenile ones, might even see it as a bit of a challenge: get their invective tagged by mods so it's really visible to all? :barf:
As I said before:
1. All posts in L&P for the time being MUST be directly related to 2A, shooting & self defense issues. Any deviation to other topics which are not directly related to the above will be yanked and the poster banned from L&P until after the election. ABSOLUTELY NO DISCUSSION OF ISSUES NOT RELATED TO THE ABOVE.
Abortion, drugs, borders, immigration, national defense, race, sex, religion, welfare, 2-party system, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan... ALL OFF LIMITS.
2. State it clearly and let it be known the first infraction will result in a banning from L&P until after the election.
3. After the election see if we can open up the discussion some.
1. All posts in L&P for the time being MUST be directly related to 2A, shooting & self defense issues. Any deviation to other topics which are not directly related to the above will be yanked and the poster banned from L&P until after the election. ABSOLUTELY NO DISCUSSION OF ISSUES NOT RELATED TO THE ABOVE.
Abortion, drugs, borders, immigration, national defense, race, sex, religion, welfare, 2-party system, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan... ALL OFF LIMITS.
2. State it clearly and let it be known the first infraction will result in a banning from L&P until after the election.
3. After the election see if we can open up the discussion some.
"1. All posts in L&P for the time being MUST be directly related to 2A, shooting & self defense issues."
I would bet that this rule alone would eliminate 70 percent of the bickering, if only because most on TFL are on the same page when it comes to firearms issues, while there is broad disagreement on all the other political items.
Tim
I would bet that this rule alone would eliminate 70 percent of the bickering, if only because most on TFL are on the same page when it comes to firearms issues, while there is broad disagreement on all the other political items.
Tim
Wildalaska
Moderator
No we aren't. Thats been made clear over and over again.
WildsarahAlaska ™
"No we aren't. Thats been made clear over and over again."
What issues are red flag items, then?
We are, at least, on the same page by comparison to things like gay rights, immigration, presidential politics, Iraq, etc. Limiting L&P to firearms-related issues only would have a chance of success.
Edit: Actually, my post (this one) illustrates a big part of the problem (for me at least)... a tendency to want to engage in one-line urination tournaments with others who have similar inclinations. Maybe a good rule would be to impose a 3-post limit (per poster) for any given L&P thread. That would encourage people to think carefully about what they post, and also would cause threads to come and go quickly.
Tim
What issues are red flag items, then?
We are, at least, on the same page by comparison to things like gay rights, immigration, presidential politics, Iraq, etc. Limiting L&P to firearms-related issues only would have a chance of success.
Edit: Actually, my post (this one) illustrates a big part of the problem (for me at least)... a tendency to want to engage in one-line urination tournaments with others who have similar inclinations. Maybe a good rule would be to impose a 3-post limit (per poster) for any given L&P thread. That would encourage people to think carefully about what they post, and also would cause threads to come and go quickly.
Tim
Yes, Tim. That is a big part of the problem. I could easily delete both your post and Ken's post as just adding to the noise. After all, neither were any form of suggestion. In good conscience, I would then have to go back and look at every post in this thread and do the same to each and every off topic post.
ETA: Didn't read Tim's "edit" close enough or forgot the one sentence in his "edit." In which case, I would have edited out everything but the suggestion. My bad, for that.
Suddenly, 30+ posts get paired down to 15 or so....
Should the mods have to always do that? I think not. But then the alternative is to close the thread for veering off topic. If I delete the posts, I will get PM's wanting (sometimes demanding) to know why. If the thread is closed, the same occurs. If I delete or edit a post and PM the member why I did what I did, I get arguments and demands and even some who threaten. sigh. Can't win, no matter what we do.
In the spirit of this thread, I've just described one of the (many) problems. I'm not deleting your posts. I'm keeping the thread open.
The rest of the staff continues to discuss this, amongst ourselves. And to read this thread. Anyone want to get back on topic and suggest some viable alternatives to the morass that L&P had become?
ETA: Didn't read Tim's "edit" close enough or forgot the one sentence in his "edit." In which case, I would have edited out everything but the suggestion. My bad, for that.
Suddenly, 30+ posts get paired down to 15 or so....
Should the mods have to always do that? I think not. But then the alternative is to close the thread for veering off topic. If I delete the posts, I will get PM's wanting (sometimes demanding) to know why. If the thread is closed, the same occurs. If I delete or edit a post and PM the member why I did what I did, I get arguments and demands and even some who threaten. sigh. Can't win, no matter what we do.
In the spirit of this thread, I've just described one of the (many) problems. I'm not deleting your posts. I'm keeping the thread open.
The rest of the staff continues to discuss this, amongst ourselves. And to read this thread. Anyone want to get back on topic and suggest some viable alternatives to the morass that L&P had become?
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Wildalaska
Moderator
1. Strict guidelines (whatever they are going to be), strictly enforced...with the proviso that if someone sees an objectionable comment THEY DO NOT RESPOND BUT HIT THE REPORT POST BUTTON
2. Limit it strictly to firearms related legal issues....
3. Editorial comment strictly circumscribed:
Bad....
Post: Jims gun shop is being closed by the BATF for repeated violations.
Reply: What is the evidence?
Post X, Y, Z
Reply: Seems to be somewhat weak, as usual for the BATFE (editorial)
Good
Reply: Seems to be somewhat weak, what are the facts surrounding Y
Reply: ABC
Reply: A should not be a reason, I think it will turn out to be an error....
and so on.
4. NO INVECTIVE...no sheeples, JBTs, traitors, Demonkrats, thugs, liars, and all of the other code words....half of the problem is the invective level.
I'm good at working on rules since I break them so much
WildlipstickonpigsAlaska ™
Okay, I've read through this thread and here's what I think:
Discussion of guns is kinda boring. Guns don't change much. Except for some cosmetic differences they're pretty much the same now as they were in 1900. If I want to find out something about a particular gun I can Google for it and I might be directed here or to any of a dozen or so similar sites.
Shutting down L&P is not a good thing. On my browser The Highroad is listed (in reversed alphabeticl order) just above of TFL. These past few months I've routinely passed over it to get here.
I believe there is a rule at the UN which forbids an ambassador form replying to a critical speaker for a set period of time. Even diplomats need some "cooling off" time after some guy in a set of funny clothes insults their country. Perhaps such a rule could be built into the software to keep those one-line ******* matches from splattering onto the shoes of the moderators.
There is one more thing that I hesitate to bring up but it has to be said since almost everybody is thinking it: While this is a gun board, no one is holding one to the heads of the mods, forcing them to moderate. As with any job, whether it's paid or volunteer, if you don't like it... leave it. The moderators here do a remarkably good job and I can readily see why they might get burnt out after awhile. I spent countless hours setting construction stakes in my job as a surveyor. I got awfully tired of it but I didn't set fire to the truck and shoot at any firemen that wanted to put it out. Shutting down L&P is just like setting fire to that truck. Like suicide, it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
Discussion of guns is kinda boring. Guns don't change much. Except for some cosmetic differences they're pretty much the same now as they were in 1900. If I want to find out something about a particular gun I can Google for it and I might be directed here or to any of a dozen or so similar sites.
Shutting down L&P is not a good thing. On my browser The Highroad is listed (in reversed alphabeticl order) just above of TFL. These past few months I've routinely passed over it to get here.
I believe there is a rule at the UN which forbids an ambassador form replying to a critical speaker for a set period of time. Even diplomats need some "cooling off" time after some guy in a set of funny clothes insults their country. Perhaps such a rule could be built into the software to keep those one-line ******* matches from splattering onto the shoes of the moderators.
There is one more thing that I hesitate to bring up but it has to be said since almost everybody is thinking it: While this is a gun board, no one is holding one to the heads of the mods, forcing them to moderate. As with any job, whether it's paid or volunteer, if you don't like it... leave it. The moderators here do a remarkably good job and I can readily see why they might get burnt out after awhile. I spent countless hours setting construction stakes in my job as a surveyor. I got awfully tired of it but I didn't set fire to the truck and shoot at any firemen that wanted to put it out. Shutting down L&P is just like setting fire to that truck. Like suicide, it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
A modest proposal
OK, here's a suggestion:
Make posting in L&P a privilege, to be earned with a track record of intelligent, civil posts in other forums. Default: you can't post there. If the mods notice that you're polite, thoughtful, respectful of others' points of view in your posts in other forums, then they can enable your L&P rights.
A member who wanted to be included could also ask moderators to review his/her posts to see if they're up to this standard. If so, great, if not -- one PM from a mod detailing why not, and permission to try again after a few weeks, months, whatever.
No one is excluded -- once they've shown that they can behave decently.
And of course, if their L&P posts lapse into incivility, they're out.
This might even improve the general tone in some other forums, and it would also tend to exclude the dreaded under-the-bridge folks who post only in L&P, and only do it to annoy...
OK, here's a suggestion:
Make posting in L&P a privilege, to be earned with a track record of intelligent, civil posts in other forums. Default: you can't post there. If the mods notice that you're polite, thoughtful, respectful of others' points of view in your posts in other forums, then they can enable your L&P rights.
A member who wanted to be included could also ask moderators to review his/her posts to see if they're up to this standard. If so, great, if not -- one PM from a mod detailing why not, and permission to try again after a few weeks, months, whatever.
No one is excluded -- once they've shown that they can behave decently.
And of course, if their L&P posts lapse into incivility, they're out.
This might even improve the general tone in some other forums, and it would also tend to exclude the dreaded under-the-bridge folks who post only in L&P, and only do it to annoy...
The disruptive members have won. Congratulations!
Over the years we have had numerous contentious and controversial threads. The decorum was always good and politeness the norm.
A couple of the ones which come to mind as being true flamebait are:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88006 which ran 315 posts and had persons from outside TFL registering to join the debate.
The other was likely in the top ten most controversial threads in TFL history.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101133 which ran 110 posts.
Both ran to their conclusion with neither being closed. The decorum and politeness displayed at that time was admirable.
However, over time the mods have allowed persons, who have obviously been hanging out at less regulated forums where anything goes, to join; and these people have gotten us to where we now are. The "solution" was to take the grade school attitude of everyone must be punished for the acts of the few. I'm sorry we didn't have enough gum for the entire class.
To close the forum is tantamount to cowardice in the face of adversity rather than to take a strong stand against those who have caused the problem in the first place. If their goal was to close the forum then they are to be congratulated on their victory.
I'll drop by occasionally to see if anyone has gained any maturity. I won't, however, hold my breath -- even though I do look simply smashing in blue.
Over the years we have had numerous contentious and controversial threads. The decorum was always good and politeness the norm.
A couple of the ones which come to mind as being true flamebait are:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88006 which ran 315 posts and had persons from outside TFL registering to join the debate.
The other was likely in the top ten most controversial threads in TFL history.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101133 which ran 110 posts.
Both ran to their conclusion with neither being closed. The decorum and politeness displayed at that time was admirable.
However, over time the mods have allowed persons, who have obviously been hanging out at less regulated forums where anything goes, to join; and these people have gotten us to where we now are. The "solution" was to take the grade school attitude of everyone must be punished for the acts of the few. I'm sorry we didn't have enough gum for the entire class.
To close the forum is tantamount to cowardice in the face of adversity rather than to take a strong stand against those who have caused the problem in the first place. If their goal was to close the forum then they are to be congratulated on their victory.
I'll drop by occasionally to see if anyone has gained any maturity. I won't, however, hold my breath -- even though I do look simply smashing in blue.
jimpeel ~
You did a pretty good job articulating the problem, though I think your post was marred somewhat by the bitter vitriol in it.
"Over time, mods have allowed persons to join..."
Well, that's one of the things we've been tossing around as an idea. NOT allowing persons to join. Prohibit new members from viewing or posting in L&P until they've been on the board awhile and have made a certain threshold number of worthwhile contributions to TFL elsewhere. This would serve the function of 1) keeping out people who aren't actually interested in firearms, and 2) allowing new members to see and absorb our board culture and community standards, before being tempted to break them in contentious threads.
Of course, keeping out people who aren't really interested in firearms to begin with may not be all that desirable. And there's absolutely no indication that a high post count - in L&P or anywhere else on the board - actually shows anything about the poster except that they post a lot.
pax
You did a pretty good job articulating the problem, though I think your post was marred somewhat by the bitter vitriol in it.
"Over time, mods have allowed persons to join..."
Well, that's one of the things we've been tossing around as an idea. NOT allowing persons to join. Prohibit new members from viewing or posting in L&P until they've been on the board awhile and have made a certain threshold number of worthwhile contributions to TFL elsewhere. This would serve the function of 1) keeping out people who aren't actually interested in firearms, and 2) allowing new members to see and absorb our board culture and community standards, before being tempted to break them in contentious threads.
Of course, keeping out people who aren't really interested in firearms to begin with may not be all that desirable. And there's absolutely no indication that a high post count - in L&P or anywhere else on the board - actually shows anything about the poster except that they post a lot.
pax
Wildalaska
Moderator
Au contraire, in my case it shows that winters are long and SWMBO keeps me home...
Plus since there is NOTHING on TV.....
WildoksorryicouldntresistpokingfunatmyselfAlaska ™
PS...as to new members posting on L&P
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281808&highlight=member
WildeventheblindpigfindsanacornAlaska ™
pax said:
Bitterness born of this:
Antipitas said:
Essentially we were told that regardless of our wishes it's dead and that's that.
The problem is that here we sit in a country, founded on an adversarial form of government, in which swordplay in the House of Representatives and gunfire ala Hamilton-Burr, while not commonplace, were not unheard of. No one suggested that the House and Senate be closed because of a couple of overzealous members.
If we start excluding members who are not aligned on our side of the firearms debate then there is no debate. We may as well call ourselves the Ms. boards or wakeupwalmart.com and get it over with. That is how they operate. All debate is quashed and if you try you are expelled uncerimoniously.
What needs to happen is the expulsion of the fractious, disruptive, types and their "Neener, neener", "Uh-huh!", "Nuh-uh!" debating style.
This country was formed on the great experiment of the great debate. It is sad that that ideal has taken us to this.
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