Sub MOA all day long

"sub moa all day long" is just an inexperienced brag claim. When i read this claim, I just roll my eyes an move along to the next " i shot this cloverleaf group at 100 yds" claim. Let me observe you shoot sub moa all day long at 600 yds like the Palma guys actually do, and now you have my admiration.
 
The NRA smallbore 50 yard prone with scope record is 205 shots in one MOA. Each bullet touched the .391 inch X ring.

Palma matches are shot at 8, 9, and 10 hundred yards using metallic sights and one feels good if they shoot inside 2 MOA.

Search the 'net for bench rest match results and note most competitors shoot sub MOA all the time.
 
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I take the phrase "all day long" to mean one can do it on demand, anytime during the day, not that one can do it for 8hrs straight (or 24 if you're on that clock).
 
I guess you could reasonably expect a real benchrest rifle having demonstrated in the "teens" to shoot under a MOA all the time.
 
Like a welder looks up Welding filth (not immune), this is shooters filth. Those tight groups and the hits on golf balls. Can’t get myself to leave the page.
 
NONE of my precision rifles are sub MOA "all day long". Why not ? Because I always have days where i litterally have documented sending 4 shots totalling .27 MOA at 200 meters, and come back a month later with the exact same load per my data and could barely hold 1.5 MOA at the same 200 meters. It's the fine variables decision making that i'm simply not fully mastered yet. (probably never will either). Hopefully as I move closer to retirement I will have better time opportunities to further persue correcting my shooting deficiencies.
 
It no longer means anything because people use it as hyperbole, or to make themselves feel good about lying on the internet.
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The worst liars are on muzzleloader boards. On one muzzleloader board nearly everyone except myself routinely makes a "ragged hole" at 100 yards, some do it offhand.
 
Berger, Sierra and Lapua match bullets all test under half MOA through 200 yards.

Sierra used to sell their most accurate 30 caliber match bullets in 1000 per box. They still had the sizing lube on them: they tested under one fourth MOA.

The smallbore 50 yard prone record is 205 shots under half an inch shot in one match.

A national highpower champion testing Lapua bullets shot several dozen inside 2 inches at 600 yards with his Winchester 70 based rifle.
 
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When I hear that phrase I consider it hyperbole, never to be taken literally. We use phrases like that in our normal everyday conversation all the time and no one gets uptight about it.

I may refer to one of my grandkids as "sharp as a tack". Or "fast as lightning". No, they aren't literally as fast as lightning, but people get the idea.

If someone were to say "Sub MOA, all day long" I take it to mean they have a very accurate rifle. No more, no less.
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I think that's a good answer .

I've used the term and meant it . The thing is in that statement I mean the rifle can do it and not necessarily me doing it . If I shoot 15 out of 20 five shot groups sub MOA and the other 5 groups right at MOA in a 2hr session . I will call that a sub moa all day rifle cus I truly believe it would have done that with a better shooter behind the trigger . I think Bart B in the past has pointed out Sierra test barrels do that all week and month long . A lot of guns are able to do sub MOA all day long . The hard part is finding someone that can shoot as well as the rifle to prove it ;-)
 
Metal_god, first off, I have to hand it to you for your signature at end of your posts…. “If Jesus had a gun, he’d probably still be alive!” I about come unglued from that one. I am a church-going practicing Christian myself, but I am of the thought that NO ONE can resist the truth wrapped in a good joke. Plus, if you can’t laugh at your own thoughts and beliefs, you don’t deserve to have them…

Brass taxes.. I have heard that factory guns adverts claim they can get sub-MOA three shot groups all day long. I can read that until I am blue in the face. And it is probably true. If you practice proper shooting techniques, anything is possible. Heck even with a “Minute of Deer” rifle, you could probably get a ragged hole at 100 yards if you really paid attention.

Problem I find is, from bargain hunting rifles for kids or first timer’s to pricey long range darlings, it ALL comes down to human error, no?? I see it two basic ways, please augment my points as you all see fit. Or debate me. Either way, information is shared.

Number A: Factory could be having a banner day, action rails are straight and true, heat treatment is perfect, all the machining is epic perfect. Barrel mounted perfectly true, everything just right from factory. Some noob buys it, takes it to range and just doesn’t quite know all the techniques and basics and can’t hit the broad side of a cow with a snow shovel…. Lackluster groupings. But on other side of that, if you have the scenario mentioned above, and a great shooter, you could be driving tacks over a mile away.

Number B: Polar opposite…. Factory has what my father calls “a bad union day” and the guy is on coffee break more than he works, making grievances and not getting any parts made correctly. Barrel on about as straight as a Virginia fence, rails twisted, heat treatment is junk. You essentially have a boat anchor, but you have a fine shooter that’s able to adapt and make some shots. (However unlikely this may seem to be, granted.). But you could also have this scenario, and a bubba shooter, and probably never even put pills on paper at 100 inches let alone 100 yards.

Thoughts??
 
Another thing I have read is barrel makers claiming sub-MOA all day long. I just picked up a barrel from Carbon6, and that is their claim, but they CLEARLY mark in large print on their website, “May not happen out of the box. With proper load development this is absolutely possible.”

I plan on developing some loads from once fired brass, and I hope that I can really do some damage with this thing once its finished.

With a fine gunsmith putting the pipe on, and truing the action as they should. I have no doubt in my mind that precision and accuracy can be squeezed out like that. For sure.
 
To me it means every one of 10 shots will be sub-moa

As a rule-of-thumb statistics thing, a sample that is the square root of the population is sufficient. In other words, 10 shots is most likely a good representation of what 100 shots will look like. The more shots you take, the more likely your claim.

I’ve seen fellas claim the have a ‘sub moa rifle’ because the third group of three they shot was sub-moa.

To me, that’s just cherry-picking the data. They shot 9, and could not make it sub moa. Three isn’t a big enough sample to have high reliability. They got lucky. Minute of Deer? Sure, but not sub moa.

All day long? Give me an hour between shots? Sure.
 
As a rule-of-thumb statistics thing, a sample that is the square root of the population is sufficient. In other words, 10 shots is most likely a good representation of what 100 shots will look like. The more shots you take, the more likely your claim.
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Awesome that means these rifles are sub moa all day long

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And this rifle

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and this rifle

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and this 5 shot group must be close enough based on the other groups above , I'm clearly good enough to shoot 5 more under MOA in that group ...... err wait what ????

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LOL . No , I can't shoot sub moa with any of those rifles all day long but I have shot many MANY 10 shot sub moa groups with multiple rifles and hand loads . Once I came dame close to sub 1/2 MOA 10 shot group . FWIW these are all from factory rifles or AR home builds/assemblies .

Interestingly enough , because I've not been shooting much rifle in the last few years . I have a hard time shooting sub moa with any of my rifles right now . I was shooting once or twice a week when I shot the above groups , Now I shoot rifle for accuracy once or twice a year :( You really do need to keep up with your skills to shoot well ( at least I do ) I mean I can still shoot pretty good but sub MOA all day long is not even a consideration right now .
 
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Wait there's more , I'm SOOO good I can shoot 2 sub moa groups in the same 10 shot string haha:D

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no chance at 3/8 MOA much less 1 MOA because they don’t have the training.
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Less training more skill or the time taken to learn how to shoot.

I never had none of that thar training stuff. Now gratned, my self built targets guns may not be real guns (lord knows you would not want to take one hunting) but they will shoot Sub 5/8 MOA let alone 1 MOA.

That said, on bad days I am lucky to shoot 1 MOA. But that is me not the gun.

So yea, Sub MOA all day long (for me that is 5 hours of so of shooting 150 rounds.

Often there are test loads that do not shoot it, but if I use one of the go too loads or am shooting developed loads, it will do it.

I tried some factory match rounds in 308 and no they did not shoot sub MOA. But that is also my worst shooting gun. More a 3/4 MOA with hand loads

Caveat is I do let the barrels cool down, either via cease fire and or combo of lower temp or just rack the gun and shoot another one for a while.
 
My built target rifle will consistently put bullets through the same hole without egg shaping the hole at 100 yards but I can't do more than three shots without messing it up. Will it shoot sub minute of angle all day long? Probably. Can I? Nope.
 
I brought out my Mossberg 800B .243 yesterday (It was my great uncle's gun, I got it sometime in the mid 90s, haven't shot it in about twenty years).

Ran a bunch of different loads through it, between me and the gun I was averaging about 1.75 MOA. One group out of about ten looked beautiful, all five rounds touching. I had shot a few other groups with that exact same load without that result. Was it me? Most likely. Was it the rifle? Not nearly as much as me. It would have been super easy to just post that one picture and say that is what my rifle and I can do, "all day long" when in fact that was realistically just the highlight group of about ten different groups.
 
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