Students at Calif. College ban Pledge of Allegiance

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I just wonder what the real percentage of college students are paying their own way and how many are riding on mom and pops dollar and how many are riding on mine and your TAX dollar? I bet the latter is the highest percentage, whatya wanna bet?:D :rolleyes:
 
Anger = hate? We haven't seen you on one of the nightly talking head political commentaries, have we?

Hate is one of the most over-used words in television politics today. Some of us are changing the language to prove a point.
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Mea culpa; why all the anger? Where is the justification for these claims that liberal professors are "indoctrinating" students any more than parents and preachers "indoctrinate" them?
 
I just wonder what the real percentage of college students are paying their own way and how many are riding on mom and pops dollar and how many are riding on mine and your TAX dollar? I bet the latter is the highest percentage, whatya wanna bet?
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What does it matter if a parents wants to pay her child's way through school? Reminds of me people complaining when the rich kids got a new BMW instead of an 86 Civic.

I'm no fan of putting a kid through school on tax dollars but FYI student loans are not gifts, scholarships and grants are usually paid for with private funds and I'd be willing to bet a paycheck or two since in the years I spent in school most of the kids I knew didn't get free FAFSA money because their parents made over thirty grand a year. Even those that got public grants and loans had to work for the grants and pay back the loans. There's very little in the way of completely free rides on tax dollars even for some of the exceptionally bright minds stuck in poverty.

Wanna take a guess on how much tax money is actually going to give kids these free rides?

Let's not forget that the only way for our society to advance - and one of the reasons we even have such a high quality of life - is to have an educated populace.
 
Redworm-
Amen.

[My BiCentennial Rant on Education Subsidies:]
You guys wanna guarantee the American Way of Life for generations? That we not be speaking Spanish or Farsi in 3 generations? Then Invest in the Children. Especially their education. And use tax dollars for those who can't afford it.

Education is self limiting. Nobody lives high off loans and grants. Nobody wants to tell their working peers they can't afford to hang with 'em. Few on loans and grants will stay in college (let alone grad school) for long if they are just treading water. Nobody wants to inherit $20k-50K per year in debt obligation, even if the interest rate is "only" 3%. There's no percentage in it for them. The only people who think there is are those who have never lived that life.

America gets no better return for its investment than from educated, productive, tax payers. None. This was the secret to our success in the entire 20th century; this is what propelled us to World Dominance in trade, finance and business. In fact, I can't think of a single program in this nation, other than a well equipped Military, that is more vital to our future than a well educated Next Generation.

.Gov can take as much as it needs from me, if it's earmarked for that goal. The "indoctrination" objections will take care of themselves once an educated person is in the competitive workforce for a couple of years. An uneducated person, except by extraordinary sacrifice and force of will, will never outgrow the indoctrination of their own mentors, whoever they may be.
Rich
 
Which still begs an answer to the question....

....what is the big deal? I grew up in the Vietnam era, and served in 'Nam, and never felt the so-called pressures to protest against the flag...all this has nothing to do with patriotism...it has everything to do with custom....the fact that there are a few malcontents who wish to take the majority away from what has been a customary/generational things smacks of elitism...however skeptical one may feel about our government has absolutely nothing to do with saying the Pledge in school...it's tradition...it doesn't make one anymore or any less patriotic if one chooses to pledge or not....what I take issue with is the wholesale banning of the Pledge to satisfy a handfull of misguided jerks.
 
well it really only affects those few misguided jerks in the first place...it doesn't prevent anyone else in the school from saying the pledge, simply the members of that student group during those meetings. now if the majority of the students in that student group want to ban the pledge during their own meetings then why shouldn't they be allowed to do so just to satisfy even fewer misguided jerks?
 
I remember having an argument with my 5th grade homeroom teacher. I saw no reason to have to recite the thing every morning. The Pledge is the sort of thing that you should say once and then only if you mean it.
When it's recited every day it becomes nothing more than a jingoistic fealty oath. That's about the most un-American thing I can think of.
 
This thread has had some interesting responses.

I'd submit that the students elected into the Student Government have enacted a rule that they are comforable enacting. Maybe, there will be a backlash against them next election. Based on my experience in a university/college setting, it probably won't happen.

I think the reason it won't happen is because the majority of the students at that institution are too busy getting an education. They probably won't get into the middle of the argument. So, a few outspoken students will parade around, making victory speeches, and thumping their chests, saying "we made a difference". It's a hollow victory at best.

In the grand scheme of things, they aren't going to have a major impact on anything of importance. There are a lot of students that understand the piece of paper they are attempting to get is the goal. They will work towards that end.
 
As to “liberal professors” I can say this:

We had a student walk across the quad carrying a realistic rifle. He went into a classroom building. When the calls started coming in, there was a police response. The Theater Arts professor that “okayed” the student bringing the gun to a theater workshop couldn’t understand why the student got arrested. Gee, I guess the professor never heard about “Columbine”.

We had a student get arrested with more drugs than I would believe a student could afford. We had a “Student Affairs” vice president protest the arrest because it was no big deal that the student had illegal drugs. After all, drugs and alcohol are part of the college experience and, as such, aren’t a major problem. “It’s the college student’s time to experience different things”.

I have seen professors publish papers that say our prisons are bad. One of the books used a convict who had killed another human being as her poster child. The purpose of the paper was to show how the killer’s child was adversely affected because the mother was in prison. The crime the mother committed had no bearing on the child being adversely affected. It was society’s fault that “we sent the mother away”.

I had a professor tell me that I wouldn’t pass his course, because I had served in the military during the Viet Nam Era and, because of that, I wouldn’t be able to open my mind enough to grasp the real issues of the times.

Yep, universities are truly enlightened- I love America. :barf:
 
"Mea culpa; why all the anger? Where is the justification for these claims that liberal professors are "indoctrinating" students any more than parents and preachers "indoctrinate" them?"

Well, I, for one, have seen it. Granted, I started college in 1971, but I have had history profs and political science profs put their own spin on things specifically to paint socialism and even communism in a favorable light. This does not happen universally, of course, but it is likewise unrealistic to think that it never happens.

As for the difference between professors, parents, and preachers when it comes to indoctrination...

A professor's job is teaching. A parent's job is teaching and indoctrination, and a preacher's job is indoctrination.

Tim
 
y'all seem to think that all college students are the children of rich parents and that all professors are even bringing up these "liberal" issues. utter bull. many college students pay their own way through school, many fully understand what those five figures in student loans mean and typically the only times you'll have professors touching on these subjects are when it relates to the material

You don't have math professors telling students that socialism is cool. You don't have history professors telling students that the soviet union was a happy playground (though I'm sure some people complain that they bring up the slaughter of natives because well....it happened). You don't have neuroscience professors telling students that there's no higher being.
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You got that right, Redworm. I've been through it ALL. Paid for it myself or was recognized enough to have my tuition waived. No support from parents except to scream "come visit us" at xmas and easter while the profs threatened I better stay there and study. Community College. State University. Ivy League private graduate school. Physics and Chemistry. NOBODY had time to worry about indoctrination of any sort.

The only attempt at indoctrination came from what I'd call an "outside agitator", a fellow graduate student a year ahead of me and my Teaching Assistant in Instrument Lab. A jewish fellow student and I nearly went nuts fending off this guy's constant prostelytization efforts.

Two Soviet immigrant professors in graduate school. Both were delighted when I selected Russian as my required language, which I will admit was 10% to kiss ass and 90% because I didn't think the Soviet Union was going away and it might be a good language to know. Neither of them ever tried to convince me of anything other than where my assumptions were wrong about Electricity and Magnetism.

So for those of you who haven't been there and think college is a hornet's nest of liberalism and has, as a job, teaching you the benefits of communism, get over yourselves. I was THERE, and the only philolsophy I ever got taught was that I better work my ass off or be prepared to be ejected.

The professors did have a good sense of humor, though. I got away with taking a point off one of my student's lab notebook for spelling his own damn handwritten name wrong.

You want to see lasseiz-faire capitalism at work, enroll in a university.
 
a pledge of allegiance is just that...

If you don't like it then go somewhere else. Have these spoiled little brats forgotten the soldiers that are dying for them as we speak. They need to show some respect or leave. After all their right to act like an idiot is protected by the rights that our flag and our pledge represents. That is the one thing they have, that and daddys money! You don't have to agree with me, but that's my opinion.
 
"if you don't like it you can leave"

I always find that argument hilarious. If in thirty years guns are completely banned and liberals comprise 95% of the population are you going to leave because you don't like it?
 
I sure wish people would get as worked up over our elected and appointed officials swearing an oath of office to preserve, protect, and defend OUR Constitution, who then turn around and violate it intentionally, as they do about a bunch of socialist leaning Kalifornia Kollege Kids showing their only knowledge of the Constitution is one single amendment.

Heck, it's their meeting, and their group. You don't expect them to pledge aliegence to something they don't belive in do you? Why would you want them to anyway, when their allegience is to secular humanism in the first place?

That is the official Kollege Kid religion in Kalifornia. That, and environmentalism. Why ask them to recite a pledge to something they hate?

I'd rather see more folks concentrate on why an elected Congress member swear an oath to "preserve, protect, and defend" our system of Government while doing everything in their power to illegally change it, personally.
 
When talking about these liberal college types, you might want to remember that many of the leaders of the conservative revolution (Gingrich, Armey, Gramm, etc) all were college professors!
 
Redworm, to answer your question no, I think not, it just assists in getting the point across. It seemed to make sense to you, even though you don't seem to appreciate the emphatic truth it points out.

And regarding Mr. Armstrong's comment about Gingrich and a couple of other conservatibes being part time college professors, I think that is kinda different from the norm. After all, I think most folks who honestly think it through will realize that Newt Gingrich is not really thier idea of very many college professors in Kalifornia.
 
What point? That California and colleges are communist?

And what is this "norm" you're referring to? How many college professors did you have the tried to indoctrinate you into communism or anti-american sentiment?
 
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