Straight pull rifles

It would be interesting to research the training methods from the various armies and see if they taught recruits to work the bolts WITHOUT removing the rifles from their shoulders.
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So.... because Uncle Sam (or Uncle Ivan, Or Uncle John Bull, or Uncle whoever) did not train his cannon fodder that way, it is not the right way?

Uncle John Bull taught his redcoats to close their eyes/look away from Brown Bess's sizable flash pan ..... does that seem right to you?

Yeah. It is getting pretty tough to find .308 diameter bullets, let me tell you.
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I hear of the stellar accuracy of the K-31, and then wonder how it's done safely with bullets .002 too large ..... and with a pressure rating exceeded by many commercial .308 WIN hunting loads .....
 
it can be done, and it can be done well. and you do have to understand that some methodology will have to change, BUT


it doesnt have to cost 3 times as much to make. i got so many sketches on how to do it, its not funny.
 
I don't know about John Bull traning his soldiers to look away when they fired their Brown Besses, I have been told the French drill was to do that to protect the soldiers' eyes from the flints and sparks. Since neither the Brown Bess nor the Charleville had rear sights-they were after all, smoothbores-and since the target was a row of brightly clad individuals perhaps 100 yards away not much emphasis was placed on individual marksmanship.
Since one of the suggested advantages for the straight pull as a military rifle was that it is easier to manipulate and the soldier does not "have" to remove the rifle from his shoulder, I would like to know if other armies either allowed their troops to do that or trained them otherwise. I can just see a British Army sergeant-or a Feldwebel-exploding at a recruit and telling him to keep the [expletive deleted] rifle on his shoulder when he fires and reloads. I have read in the Tsar's Army and then the Red Army they were taught to lift the bolt of their Mosin Nagants with a cupped hand and then grasp the bolt and pull it back, I have tried that on some of my Mosin Nagants and it does make it easier to keep the rifle on your shoulder.
 
John Bull trained for the The SMLE Mad Minute: 30 shots on a man sized target at 200 yards in 60 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lYxJwwmcwU
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No time to waste dropping the rifle off the shoulder there ......


I have seen old US Army training films where the -03A3 Springfield is retained on the shoulder in the prone position, but cheek weld is broken and the rifle canted down to the right as the bolt is lifted up ( to the left) for rapid fire ....

Ivan was lucky to have a rifle at all, let alone be trained to use it rapidly ......

The French were apparently taught how to drop their Lebels, Berthiers, and MAS-36's rapidly and quickly raise their hands :D .....
 
jimbob86 said:
John Bull trained for the The SMLE Mad Minute: 30 shots on a man sized target at 200 yards in 60 seconds.
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Yes that was the "standard" set by the british to train too before WW1. Sgt Snoxall (a rifle instructor) set the record in 1928, 38 hits on a 12" target @ 300 yards in 60 seconds.
 
7sleeper said:
Hello

Actually there are quite a few straight pull firearms available, at least here in Europe. A quick warning though, expect to pay between 2000-4000€ for the rifle depending on extras .

Blaser R93, Blaser R8

http://www.blaser.de/Buechsen-und-Fl...61.0.html?&L=0

Heym SR30 (a VERY interesting version using ballbearings as locking mechanism)
http://www.heym-waffenfabrik.de/produkt_sr30.html

Strasser RS05
http://www.strasser-salzburg.at/

Browning Acera (I believe it to be discontiued)

Mauser 96 (discontiued)
http://www.mauser.com/Modell-96.164.0.html

I'm sure I forgot some.

And then many countries are very restrictive about semiauto ownership, so you can get just about all semiauto's converted to straightpull. It is actually quite sad to see an ak74, steyr or similar converted to straight pull.

Let us not forget the toggle actions often used on biathlon rifles. I know they are only 22 and not a "real" straight pull.

Greetings,

7
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You forgot

Merkel (Germany)
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...x-straight-pull-rifle-teutonic-tour-de-force/
http://www.merkel-die-jagd.de/
http://rx-helix.com/ergonomics/

Pirkan Ase Lynx (Finnland)
http://www.lynxrifles.com/eng/mallisto.html

The Blaser is a sweet rifle thats for sure, a good friend owns a R93 and I havent shoot a rifle quite as nice as that (it just feels different (nicer) then other rifles to shoot). Not only are Straight-Pulls common in Europe but Bolt Action Takedowns as well as Switchbarrels (probably a good topic for another thread). This year it seams to have caught on to a couple of American rifle makers with them now offering these type of rifles.
 
From my own experience, I think the straight pulls were never popular due to the design and not necessarily the function. Removing some of these bolts from the rifles, such as the m95 Steyr, can be problematic to the inexperienced in the field, especially in a combat situation. These things sometimes have a tendency to lock up after removal, requiring some effort and time resetting them before reinsertion into the receiver.


The French were apparently taught how to drop their Lebels, Berthiers, and MAS-36's rapidly and quickly raise their hands .....
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...which explains the 1.3 million and 220,000 French KIAs in WW 1 and 2 respectively?
 
Famas ... thanks for that reply to that "quote" about the French Army because I have a military connection to them and everytime I read some smart alec slander about the French soldier; I get my back up! You were quite right about their casualties in WW-I and WW-II, but you stopped too soon ...

During the Korean War, the "French Battalion" (Le Batallion de Coree) was the 4th Battalion of the 23rd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Infantry Division (Indianhead). The 4th Battallion participated in some of the nastiest engagements fought in that forgotten, little war ... "Twin Tunnels", "Chipyong-Ni", "Wonju", "The Arrowhead", "Heartbreak Ridge" just to name a few. (In the Clint Eastwood movie of the same name, when he and his buddy are in the bar talking about Korea early in the film ... look on the wall behind them and you will see the crest of the 23rd Infantry Regiment.) Take some time to read about these battles if you want to find out what the real definition of OUTNUMBERED is.

After Korea, "Le Batallion de Coree" was sent to Vietnam and was the basis for "Groupement Mobile 100", GM-100. They reconstituted as the Korea Regiment (1st and 2nd Battalions) of GM-100, many of the officers taking a reduction in rank for the privilege of serving in that unit. (Google "The Death of GM 100" for a horrific account of this unit in action). After the First Vietnam War, the survivors of the Korea Regiment were sent to yet another unpleasant theater ... Algeria, but that's another story.

OK, why do I care? Simply because I served with the 4/23d Infantry Regiment operating out of Cu Chi, RVN in 1968. We were Mechanized Infantry, very much like GM-100. If you want to see it from my perspective, my battalion was the decendant of the "Le Batallion de Coree" and of the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the Korea Regiment, GM-100. My brothers and I fought in BOTH the FIRST and SECOND Vietnam Wars ... and no other U.S. Army Infantry unit can make that claim!

Sorry, moderators if this wandered off gun topic, but I just had to write this and I was careful to be respectful.
 
A visit to any small French town or a trip to the Ossuary at Verdun-or reading the German after action reports of that battle-is all that is necessary to understand the fighting qualities ofLe Soldat Francais. The failures of the French Army in 1940 were due to the same reason we failed so badly in Vietnam-poor leadership.
 
Not quite ... you can add, by the way, the FRENCH RSC 1917 as modified for colonial service... by rendering the gas system inoperative, this 8 X 50R semi auto rifle became a 5 shot straight pull. I would expect that the same fate (or worse) befell the follow-on model, the RSC 1918.

In this case, what I said about straight pull rifles in calibers other than .22LR or .220 Russian ... I'd rather have a turnbolt because the initial extraction is brutal (almost nonexistent) in straight pulls. Now that might not be a factor when you're adrenaline is going through the roof ... but it's another thing when you just sitting at a bench shooting cardboard.
 
jimbob, hodaka, and other interested folk, the 7.5 Swiss in all models were never .304, .306 or anything other than .308(a few can claim .307). W-FBern, the Swiss government arms factory mailed me some time ago about some specifications which I'd requested. Among other things, they do state that the proper diameter bullets to use in the 7.5X55 are .3087". I noticed a number of posting about a .304-.306" dia bullet. That would be the the approx dia of the projectile just in front of the brass in an assembled GP-11 round. And in the 1889 model(7.5X53.5), it has a three grooved barrel that confuses many into believing it is about a .304 groove dia. In actuallity the paper patched lead slug is closer to .309-.310" in dia. If ones includes the diameter with the paper patch, it is considerably larger than .310"Best All

PS I forgot to mention that a couple of decades ago Hammereli, for north of a grand, would sell you a K-31 in 300Mag.
 
It takes a fair amount of muscle as well a long bolt throw to extract spent brass from my k-31. You definitely can not keep your eyes on your sights cycling its bolt unless you like getting banged in the face with a metal ring.
 
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