Stories/examples of .22 being insufficient for SD?
- Thread starter Eskimo
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Get a book titled "Vengence" by Goerge Jonus. It is the book the movie "Munich" was based on. The movie wasn't so hot but the book is fantastic. It will give you your answer to the 22 question.
I carried a 22 for years. An Iver Johnson TP22 that I wish I still had. I never had to use it but I almost did once.
I stopped at a rest area that was empty. I put the gun in my pocket and walked to the mens room. On the way there, a man was waiting outside the restroom. I really had to go. I was alarmed by his actions and manner. Plus there had been a string of robberies at the local rest stops.
While taking a leak I used my off hand and had the gun clutched in my right hand ready to use. I heard footsteps and thought "hear we go". It was two guys in suits that had stopped. I went outside and the first guy was gone.
Two weeks later there was story in the newspaper about a traveller that was roobed and killed. They caught the robbers. One of the guys was the person at the rest stop.
That little 22 wasn't much but it was there and I was more than willing to use it. I now carry a 357 in my truck. It was nice to be able to drop that little gun in my pocket and no one knew it was there. I use a Kel-Tec 32 for the same thing now.
I carried a 22 for years. An Iver Johnson TP22 that I wish I still had. I never had to use it but I almost did once.
I stopped at a rest area that was empty. I put the gun in my pocket and walked to the mens room. On the way there, a man was waiting outside the restroom. I really had to go. I was alarmed by his actions and manner. Plus there had been a string of robberies at the local rest stops.
While taking a leak I used my off hand and had the gun clutched in my right hand ready to use. I heard footsteps and thought "hear we go". It was two guys in suits that had stopped. I went outside and the first guy was gone.
Two weeks later there was story in the newspaper about a traveller that was roobed and killed. They caught the robbers. One of the guys was the person at the rest stop.
That little 22 wasn't much but it was there and I was more than willing to use it. I now carry a 357 in my truck. It was nice to be able to drop that little gun in my pocket and no one knew it was there. I use a Kel-Tec 32 for the same thing now.
Rich Miranda
New member
To me it sounds just like a pellet gun. VERY little report. With the right silencer, I suppose you could truly silence it.
David Armstrong
Moderator
LE has little concern with size issue ordinarily, as they carry openly or if they are made off-duty is isn't much of an issue. LE is expected to move toward and close with the BG, not away. If the BG goes away, LE is expected to follow. LE needs to plan for barrier penetration on a fairly regular basis. Assorted other differences. Non-LE is pretty simple...you just need to convince the BG to go someplace else.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Oh I get it, because you are an LE, you need to make sure the BG goes down, but everyone else needs to just hope the caliber will make the BG go away and puny calibers are plenty fine for hoping that.
Now where are my ruby red slippers?
I will say this, from the incidents I have researched where good guys are shot with .22 lr, their chances of not being stopped and their chances of survival are much better than when the BGs use bigger calibers.
gollbladder13
Moderator
If I got hit with a .22, depending on where I got hit, it would send me home. I would think accuracy of the shooter would be up there in importance with caliber?
I could be wrong, but if I come after you armed I get hit in the stomach, I'll probably stop or at least be distracted for a few seconds. IMO, if I still try to get up and (probably slowly and labored) take aim on you, next guess is probably my head gets a round. If that doesn't turn somebody around (if they can still get up), well, idk what will.
Again, I could be wrong, and please stop me if I am...
I could be wrong, but if I come after you armed I get hit in the stomach, I'll probably stop or at least be distracted for a few seconds. IMO, if I still try to get up and (probably slowly and labored) take aim on you, next guess is probably my head gets a round. If that doesn't turn somebody around (if they can still get up), well, idk what will.
Again, I could be wrong, and please stop me if I am...
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I carry a 22 from time to time. Those times are when I'm too lazy to carry something bigger, or when I don't want to go off and leave my Colt Commander locked up in my truck.
I figure the odds against me needed a gun, any gun really, are about the same as the chances I'll get hit by a flying saucer that ran a red light, but you never know. I'm way to old and fat to fist fight, and too slow to run.
But I ain't kidding myself and saying "It's just as good as a .45."
Edited to add: To answer your original question, the NRA's "Armed Citizen" is full of cases of people sucessfuly using 22's for self defense. I don't know if they're availabe online or not. If you're a member of the NRA check out the column in "The American Rifleman." If you not a member, shame on you.
I figure the odds against me needed a gun, any gun really, are about the same as the chances I'll get hit by a flying saucer that ran a red light, but you never know. I'm way to old and fat to fist fight, and too slow to run.
But I ain't kidding myself and saying "It's just as good as a .45."
Edited to add: To answer your original question, the NRA's "Armed Citizen" is full of cases of people sucessfuly using 22's for self defense. I don't know if they're availabe online or not. If you're a member of the NRA check out the column in "The American Rifleman." If you not a member, shame on you.
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A Real story of a guy that got shot with a .22lr
I was pumping gas at my local gas station one day and befriended a gas station attendant. We went on to talk about random things, then he said "hey wanna see something cool?"....so he lifts up his pants leg and shows me holes from 2x .22lr's. He never told me how it happened, but I did notice that it was an obvious violent confrontation with the wrong person.
The holes were only a week old and you can clearly see there were chunks of meat gone out of his leg.
What I learned from this...being shot is psychological. This guy realized he was shot twice and immediately gave up the fight. I know not eveyone will react like this and I realize that. I would not be "undergunned" with a .22lr. I believe just having adds comfort and piece of mind to the user and a BG wont care if its a 50BMG or a 17hmr pointed at him.
Also, the guy told me that it was the most incredible burning sensation he has ever felt, being shot, which is what immediately immobilized him.
I was pumping gas at my local gas station one day and befriended a gas station attendant. We went on to talk about random things, then he said "hey wanna see something cool?"....so he lifts up his pants leg and shows me holes from 2x .22lr's. He never told me how it happened, but I did notice that it was an obvious violent confrontation with the wrong person.
The holes were only a week old and you can clearly see there were chunks of meat gone out of his leg.
What I learned from this...being shot is psychological. This guy realized he was shot twice and immediately gave up the fight. I know not eveyone will react like this and I realize that. I would not be "undergunned" with a .22lr. I believe just having adds comfort and piece of mind to the user and a BG wont care if its a 50BMG or a 17hmr pointed at him.
Also, the guy told me that it was the most incredible burning sensation he has ever felt, being shot, which is what immediately immobilized him.
Have you ever seen all the stuff on a LE officer's belt? If they could get away with a smaller gun, they would. They are forced to carry a larger gun because they know that a smaller caliber gun is less likely to get the job done.
If you have to shoot someone, the primary goal is to put him down as quickly as possible. It doesn't matter if you're a LE officer or an armed citizen. Some calibers seem more likely to do that than others.
The argument that a citizen has to just make the bad guy go away doesn't wash. If just showing a gun or firing a gun is sufficient to make the bad guy run away, it is also likely sufficient for the bad guy to surrender to the LE officer.
And while barrier penetration is likely to be more of an issue for LE, it isn't impossible to imagine a situation where an armed citizen might also need that capability.
The bottom line is that anyone who feels the need to carry a firearm should probably carry one that is most likely to get the job done in all situations.
Would I use a .22 if it was all I had? Sure. Would I leave the house with a .22 as my primary carry gun hoping that if I needed a gun it would be against someone who would run in fear at the mere sight of the weapon? Absolutely not.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Well, since nobody said anything close to that, nor even implied it in any way, there really isn't much need to point out all the fallicies in that statement, IMO.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Yes I have, no they wouldn't, and no they aren't.
No it isn't. For SD purposes, the primary goal is to make the BG stop putting you in danger. Putting him down is pretty much irrelevant.
Why would you want to keep him around you? If he goes away, how are you in any immediate danger from him?
That is an interesting idea, but I'm not aware of anything that would support it. In fact, since making someone go away and taking away their liberty are such totally different concepts, I doubt that there is much validity to the idea at all.
It's possible to imagine lots of things. I prefer to stay away from imagination and discuss reality whenever possible. But maybe that is just me. Just because one can imagine it doesn't really give much support for something.
So we should all carry around S&W 500s w/6.5" barrels just in case we need to fight off a wild grizzly bear in downtown Topeka??
gollbladder13
Moderator
Armstrong,
Remind me to always stay on your good side when posting
Remind me to always stay on your good side when posting
David Armstrong
Moderator
Don't need to stay on my good side, just need to post accurate and reasonable info. There are folks here I don't care much for that I've defended their position or info because it was right, and there are those I'm good friends with that I've taken to task because their info was wrong. There is enough nonsense , fiction, and mythology in the gun world already without helping to spread it, IMO!
David Armstrong
Moderator
What do you mean, "not enough"? Why, the mighty Brown bear is a gentle soul, a friend to man and Nature. The bears would never hurt anyone. I know because I saw the Grizzly Man Diaries!
Oh wait, never mind...the bears killed and ate him!
Oh wait, never mind...the bears killed and ate him!
Example of a 22lr's failure to stop or cause severe enough damage to allow its user to survive the encounter..........in this case it was fortunate that the dead man used a 22lr handgun since he was killed by a homeowner as he attempted a home invasion style robbery.
My grandmothers jewelers (before she died) would visit customers at their homes, sell them gold, then visit monthly for payment and more sales attempts. This event happened to them and I believe the 22lr contributed to their survival.
One morning Mr. Penda went outside to feed his rotweilers. His wife was asleep in the bedroom and daughter was enjoying breakfast in the kitchen. Once outside a masked man armed with a handgun confronted him and demanded he go inside and give up his gold. Mr Penda knowing his wife and daughter were inside refused and was subsequently shot in the leg by the gunman armed with a 22lr handgun. Mrs. Penda still sleeping heard the gunshot but disregarded it as a backfire and continued sleeping. Mr. Penda now forced to go inside enters the kitchen were his daughter is now confronted. The gunman again demands the gold only this time he threatens to do ungodly things to the daughter if unsatisfied. Now MOMMY....Mrs. Penda is fully aware of the situation and knows the group will have to enter the bedroom to get the gold. She arms herself with a 357 Magnum revolver and hides behind the open bedroom door. As the gunman enters the room he is to close to her husband to chance a COM shot so she fires a round into the gunman's shoulder to in her words "separate him from my husband". It works she hits the bad guy in the shoulder area causing him to spin and allowing hubby to dive to the side. The gunman returns fire hitting Mrs. Penda in the weak hand arm. His round goes through her arm and into her side. Mrs. Penda then shoots the gunman in the head killing him.
While we will never know if a larger caliber would have changed Mrs. Pendas ability to hit the head of the gunman, I for one never want to leave that possibility open. The location of the wounds and her description of how she was positioned lead me to believe that a larger caliber would have broken the Radius and entered the side just below the heart surely traveling further than the puny 22lr did.
You will have stories, examples, and possibilities galore both pro and con for each sides arguement (puny vs larger caliber). The only thing that counts is if and when your turn comes up will the puny 22lr be enough help to overcome your adversary/ies. As many optimists like DA and others have said it will probably be all you will ever need. I on the other hand would rather not chance Mr Murphy. IMO a carry gun should have enough power to smash bone and still reach the vitals. For this reason I will do whatever it takes to conceal a firearm of sufficient power to do so. There are so many options that are both tiny and powerful as to make concealment a breeze even here in Florida and even on those humid 95 plus degree days.
My grandmothers jewelers (before she died) would visit customers at their homes, sell them gold, then visit monthly for payment and more sales attempts. This event happened to them and I believe the 22lr contributed to their survival.
One morning Mr. Penda went outside to feed his rotweilers. His wife was asleep in the bedroom and daughter was enjoying breakfast in the kitchen. Once outside a masked man armed with a handgun confronted him and demanded he go inside and give up his gold. Mr Penda knowing his wife and daughter were inside refused and was subsequently shot in the leg by the gunman armed with a 22lr handgun. Mrs. Penda still sleeping heard the gunshot but disregarded it as a backfire and continued sleeping. Mr. Penda now forced to go inside enters the kitchen were his daughter is now confronted. The gunman again demands the gold only this time he threatens to do ungodly things to the daughter if unsatisfied. Now MOMMY....Mrs. Penda is fully aware of the situation and knows the group will have to enter the bedroom to get the gold. She arms herself with a 357 Magnum revolver and hides behind the open bedroom door. As the gunman enters the room he is to close to her husband to chance a COM shot so she fires a round into the gunman's shoulder to in her words "separate him from my husband". It works she hits the bad guy in the shoulder area causing him to spin and allowing hubby to dive to the side. The gunman returns fire hitting Mrs. Penda in the weak hand arm. His round goes through her arm and into her side. Mrs. Penda then shoots the gunman in the head killing him.
While we will never know if a larger caliber would have changed Mrs. Pendas ability to hit the head of the gunman, I for one never want to leave that possibility open. The location of the wounds and her description of how she was positioned lead me to believe that a larger caliber would have broken the Radius and entered the side just below the heart surely traveling further than the puny 22lr did.
You will have stories, examples, and possibilities galore both pro and con for each sides arguement (puny vs larger caliber). The only thing that counts is if and when your turn comes up will the puny 22lr be enough help to overcome your adversary/ies. As many optimists like DA and others have said it will probably be all you will ever need. I on the other hand would rather not chance Mr Murphy. IMO a carry gun should have enough power to smash bone and still reach the vitals. For this reason I will do whatever it takes to conceal a firearm of sufficient power to do so. There are so many options that are both tiny and powerful as to make concealment a breeze even here in Florida and even on those humid 95 plus degree days.
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