Stopping Power
- Thread starter GunGuy34
- Start date
ursavus.elemensis
New member
Remind me, please, what is wrong with 9 mm FMJ for self-defense? How is a bullet passing completely through all the bones and organs a bad thing? If the FMJ round can penetrate through everything and hit the spine, the fight is over. If the HP round can only penetrate a certain distance and then stops, comes to a complete STOP leaving all the organs beyond that point (like the spine) untouched, I fail to see how that is more better. So, as I said, please remind me of what was so bad about 9 mm FMJ that we need all these HP rounds????
Tom Servo, for one that is a really hot 9mm load and a very watered down 357 Mag. You're comparing a boutique 9mm loading that isn't widely available to a plane jane 357 load, and a watered down one at that. Federal loads its 125 gr JHP to about 1380-1400 fps. If you want to compare really hot loads you can buy 125 gr 357 loads that will do 1600 fps out of a 4" barrel. That is 700 ft/lbs of energy.The other thing is that some people put way too much emphasis on energy numbers and ballistics and don't focus on the projectile. You see, revolvers aren't handicapped by the necessity to reliably feed bullets into the chamber.
If you compare the classic Federal 125 gr JHP 357 load to any 9mm JHP you will simply see the difference. The cavity of the JHP in the 357 load is HUGE and has exposed lead. That load is a very reliable expander. I think some people put way too much emphasis on paper numbers and ballistics gel. Its easy to see on a computer screen and compare paper ballistics but if you actually physically look at both loads you can see why the 357 is a proven performer. 357 JHP loads lighter than 158 gr are simply more reliable expanders than the 9mm. Quite a few 9mm and 45 ACP SD rounds plug up after passing through clothing.
On another note, I'm having a hard time believing the story somebody posted on here about a 9mm not penetrating the skull of a dog. Sorry but that's just absurd. If it was a solid hit it would have penetrated. I can see it glancing off because of the angle but the poster implied that wouldn't have happened with a 45 ACP. That is one area where the revolver is superior. They used blunt projectiles that aren't as prone to glancing off of targets like the football shaped semi-auto projectiles.
Last edited:
ursavus, the problem with FMJ for SD is that it doesn't deform much and just zips through the target. Over penetration can be a serious concern. Studies have shown that muscle tissue is very elastic and can stretch quite a bit. A .355 hole turns in a .20 caliber hole pretty quickly. A JHP mushrooms and flattens out creating a very true wound nearly the size of the actual expanded projectile. Another reason why some folks like big bore revolvers loaded wtih SWC. Even shooting at paper targets you can see the difference. SWC cut a nice clean hole through the target.
CarbineCaleb
New member
When it comes to results in stopping power, there is a lot of variation due to the person (size, toughness, mental state), and due to shot placement and the angle of the shot. Yet, people always want to chalk up the result to the round, and they don't want to hear any differently. That's all it comes down to.
Last edited:
Anyone else think.....
..... the whole "stopping power" issue is being blown out of proportion?
For the most part, we are all carrying at least a .380 (most biigger) with the latest hollowpoints developed that nearly double in size and stay
together with a bonded core at velocities over 800+fps.
The point is that we are using quality firearms with great ammo for SD from bad guys and at scenario distances of 5ft to 25yards. We're not toting Wrist-Rockets and Red Ryders! IMHO not too many people are going to care what you shot with when they're wounded or dead. Center mass, 2 clean hits, like everyone teaches and more than likely you'll be alive to tell the cops what happened.
I pray that I never have to use a gun or anything in SD. However, in the unfortunate slight chance I do, the caliber will be the least of my concerns at the time.
..... the whole "stopping power" issue is being blown out of proportion?
For the most part, we are all carrying at least a .380 (most biigger) with the latest hollowpoints developed that nearly double in size and stay
together with a bonded core at velocities over 800+fps.
The point is that we are using quality firearms with great ammo for SD from bad guys and at scenario distances of 5ft to 25yards. We're not toting Wrist-Rockets and Red Ryders! IMHO not too many people are going to care what you shot with when they're wounded or dead. Center mass, 2 clean hits, like everyone teaches and more than likely you'll be alive to tell the cops what happened.
I pray that I never have to use a gun or anything in SD. However, in the unfortunate slight chance I do, the caliber will be the least of my concerns at the time.
The 9mm Silvertip didn't fail the shooter. The bullet penetrated and expanded as designed. Pistol bullets that perform as designed don't always stop an assailant. The Silvertip had a good street record prior to that, and afterwards, for that matter. Blaming the Silvertip that peformed to specifications makes as much sense as blaming all the Silvertips, and other rounds, that didn't find their mark.
Seems to me, that in the mid 80's, there wasn't a lot of ammo that incorporated the technology to outshine the Silvertip's performance.
Michael Platt was LE's worst nightmare. The man every officer fears the most. Not afraid to die, and not going to quit--- while abosolutey dedicated to nothing less than killing as many officers as possible while high on his own adrenaline, and performing in the moment he knew would come--and maybe even lived for.
Larger caliber does have something to do with stopping power. I mean you can hunt large game with a 357 or above and use it as a bear stopper. However, I doubt a 9mm would be advisable to use. As far as humans are concerned with our frail shells, i think a 9mm will do the job.
I didn't mean to imply that Dove's loading failed in any way. In fact, it performed quite well. As you pointed out, the rest of the situation was a hideous mess.
I meant to say that, while there have been reports of failures to stop an assailant with good ammo and good shot placement, I've heard no more of it from 9mm than any other service caliber.
Actually, that was a real-world comparison between two carry guns, both using Black Hills ammunition. The 9mm was a 124gr +P hollow point fired from a CZ-75, while the .357 was their 125gr load fired from a 3" S&W Model 65.
The .357 may have been faster if fired from a 6" barrel (which is likely what the company used to get their numbers), but as fired, neither loading was a slouch in any respect.
Real world comparison between .357 mag and 9mm with "regular" loads and concealable guns:
Ruger Speed Six .357 Mag 3'' Federal (full house load) 125 JHP @ 1,248 fps / 432# KE
XD9sc 9mm Federal 115 +P+ @ 1,244 fps / 395# KE (Corbon 115 +P is faster than the +P+ Federal out of another subcompact pistol)
Just for comparison:
Glock 33 .357 Sig Gold Dot 125 JHP @ 1,315 fps / 480# KE
Kel-Tec P3AT Glod Dot 90 gr. @ 841 fps / 141# KE
From "comparable" size guns there isn't that much energy difference between the 357 Mag and 9mm, if you use a high performance 9mm load and the typical 125 JHP in the 357 Mag.
If the 357 Mag is accepted as a good stopper, then it's based on KE not diameter, since the 380 has the same diameter bullet.
Ruger Speed Six .357 Mag 3'' Federal (full house load) 125 JHP @ 1,248 fps / 432# KE
XD9sc 9mm Federal 115 +P+ @ 1,244 fps / 395# KE (Corbon 115 +P is faster than the +P+ Federal out of another subcompact pistol)
Just for comparison:
Glock 33 .357 Sig Gold Dot 125 JHP @ 1,315 fps / 480# KE
Kel-Tec P3AT Glod Dot 90 gr. @ 841 fps / 141# KE
From "comparable" size guns there isn't that much energy difference between the 357 Mag and 9mm, if you use a high performance 9mm load and the typical 125 JHP in the 357 Mag.
If the 357 Mag is accepted as a good stopper, then it's based on KE not diameter, since the 380 has the same diameter bullet.
Quote:
The 9mm Silvertip didn't fail the shooter. The bullet penetrated and expanded as designed. Pistol bullets that perform as designed don't always stop an assailant. The Silvertip had a good street record prior to that, and afterwards, for that matter. Blaming the Silvertip that peformed to specifications makes as much sense as blaming all the Silvertips, and other rounds, that didn't find their mark."
AMEN! The bullet worked perfectly, as designed. Neither the bullet or the caliber should be blamed. However, the outcome did lead us where we are today, with the best selection of bullets ever available, in every caliber.
The 9mm Silvertip didn't fail the shooter. The bullet penetrated and expanded as designed. Pistol bullets that perform as designed don't always stop an assailant. The Silvertip had a good street record prior to that, and afterwards, for that matter. Blaming the Silvertip that peformed to specifications makes as much sense as blaming all the Silvertips, and other rounds, that didn't find their mark."
AMEN! The bullet worked perfectly, as designed. Neither the bullet or the caliber should be blamed. However, the outcome did lead us where we are today, with the best selection of bullets ever available, in every caliber.
Originally posted by Tom Servo
That particular comparison is kind of stacking the deck in favor of the 9mm. Both cartridges' advertised velocities are typically from 4" barrels but your comparison stacks a .357 from a relatively short barrel (3") against a 9mm from a relativley long barrel (4.7").
Also, the two guns aren't really comparable as a standard CZ-75 is a full sized gun rather than a compact model while the M65 you used has the shortest barrel length available on that particular model. A more fair comparison would be your CZ to a M65 with a 4" barrel or your M65 against a smaller CZ like the 75 Compact or Rami.
Originally posted by CDW4ME
You're not really seeing a lot of the .357 Magnum's potential in your comparison. Where the .357 Magnum really shines out of a snub is when you start looking at loadings with heavier bullets such as Winchester's 145grn Silvertip, Cor-Bon's 140grn JHP, or any of the various 158grn JHP loadings. When fired from a 2-3" barrel, loadings with heavier bullets are more efficient and typically only "lose" 100-150fps compared to their velocities from 4" barrels as opposed to the lighter 125grn loadings which usually "lose" 200-250fps.
Also, bullet weight and velocity doesn't tell the whole story. If you look at the ballistic gelatin tests over at brassfetcher.com, you'll see that nearly all the 124grn 9mm and .357 Sig loadings display very similar penetration characterisitics, usually penetrating between 10 and 12" while the 125grn Speer Gold Dot .357 Magnum (the only loading tested in that caliber) displayed similar expansion to the other two cartridges but significantly deeper penetration at 16"+.
Finally, you're comparing a fairly "hot" +P+ 9mm to a fairly run-of-the-mill .357 Magnum. If you compare true top end loadings of each caliber from makers like Double Tap or Buffalo Bore, you will see that the .357 Magnum usually has about a 200-300fps speed advantage over either 9mm or .357 Sig when used with the same weight bullet from comparable barrel lengths.
That particular comparison is kind of stacking the deck in favor of the 9mm. Both cartridges' advertised velocities are typically from 4" barrels but your comparison stacks a .357 from a relatively short barrel (3") against a 9mm from a relativley long barrel (4.7").
Also, the two guns aren't really comparable as a standard CZ-75 is a full sized gun rather than a compact model while the M65 you used has the shortest barrel length available on that particular model. A more fair comparison would be your CZ to a M65 with a 4" barrel or your M65 against a smaller CZ like the 75 Compact or Rami.
Originally posted by CDW4ME
You're not really seeing a lot of the .357 Magnum's potential in your comparison. Where the .357 Magnum really shines out of a snub is when you start looking at loadings with heavier bullets such as Winchester's 145grn Silvertip, Cor-Bon's 140grn JHP, or any of the various 158grn JHP loadings. When fired from a 2-3" barrel, loadings with heavier bullets are more efficient and typically only "lose" 100-150fps compared to their velocities from 4" barrels as opposed to the lighter 125grn loadings which usually "lose" 200-250fps.
Also, bullet weight and velocity doesn't tell the whole story. If you look at the ballistic gelatin tests over at brassfetcher.com, you'll see that nearly all the 124grn 9mm and .357 Sig loadings display very similar penetration characterisitics, usually penetrating between 10 and 12" while the 125grn Speer Gold Dot .357 Magnum (the only loading tested in that caliber) displayed similar expansion to the other two cartridges but significantly deeper penetration at 16"+.
Finally, you're comparing a fairly "hot" +P+ 9mm to a fairly run-of-the-mill .357 Magnum. If you compare true top end loadings of each caliber from makers like Double Tap or Buffalo Bore, you will see that the .357 Magnum usually has about a 200-300fps speed advantage over either 9mm or .357 Sig when used with the same weight bullet from comparable barrel lengths.
No argument there. My point was to show that, between two of my typical guns, using practical off-the-shelf stuff, there's not a huge world of difference.
You're right that there certainly CAN be a significant difference using the right loads. Get up to heavier bullets and higher velocities in .357, and the difference is certainly apparent. However, those aren't loads I'd likely be carrying for self-defense.
Originally posted by Tom Servo
If you're looking at bullets of 130grn or less with only run-of-the-mill ammunition, then yes there isn't a huge difference between a good 9mm and a .357 Magnum from an abbreviated barrel. However, there are several excellent .357 Magnum self-protection loadings that use heavier bullets and this is where the power difference between the two cartirdges really shows. If we take, for example, Winchester's 145grn Silvertip we find that this loading will easily break 1200fps from a 4" barrel and usually has little trouble breaking 1100fps from a 2-3" barrel. A comparable 9mm loading with a 147grn bullet, however, will be hard pressed to break 1000fps from a full-sized gun unless we start looking at boutique ammo makers like Double Tap and Buffalo Bore.
Really, it's somewhat unfortunate that the 125grn .357 loadings achieved the level of fame that they did because it too often causes excellent loadings with other bullet weights to be ignored or forgotten. Personally, I think that the heavier 140-158grn .357 Magnum loadings offer some distinct advantages over the lighter, faster 125grn loadings and thusly prefer the former over the latter. Heavier bullets in this caliber seem to me to be less offensive in terms of flash and muzzle blast, they will typically shoot closer to point of aim in a fixed sighted revolver (158grn is the standard weight for both .38 Special and .357 Magnum so most manufacturers regulated sights to that weight for many years), and they cause less wear and tear on certain guns like S&W K-Frames (my preferred CCW).
If you're looking at bullets of 130grn or less with only run-of-the-mill ammunition, then yes there isn't a huge difference between a good 9mm and a .357 Magnum from an abbreviated barrel. However, there are several excellent .357 Magnum self-protection loadings that use heavier bullets and this is where the power difference between the two cartirdges really shows. If we take, for example, Winchester's 145grn Silvertip we find that this loading will easily break 1200fps from a 4" barrel and usually has little trouble breaking 1100fps from a 2-3" barrel. A comparable 9mm loading with a 147grn bullet, however, will be hard pressed to break 1000fps from a full-sized gun unless we start looking at boutique ammo makers like Double Tap and Buffalo Bore.
Really, it's somewhat unfortunate that the 125grn .357 loadings achieved the level of fame that they did because it too often causes excellent loadings with other bullet weights to be ignored or forgotten. Personally, I think that the heavier 140-158grn .357 Magnum loadings offer some distinct advantages over the lighter, faster 125grn loadings and thusly prefer the former over the latter. Heavier bullets in this caliber seem to me to be less offensive in terms of flash and muzzle blast, they will typically shoot closer to point of aim in a fixed sighted revolver (158grn is the standard weight for both .38 Special and .357 Magnum so most manufacturers regulated sights to that weight for many years), and they cause less wear and tear on certain guns like S&W K-Frames (my preferred CCW).