Stopping Power

The only 35 worth it's salt on people is a 357mag with 125s.
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While I'm a big fan of .357, I have to wonder where the huge difference is between these two loads:

125gr .357 bullet at 1310 ft/s

124gr .355 bullet at 1260 ft/s

One is apparently the "lightning bolt" that routinely stops bad guys in their tracks, while the other is only marginally more damaging than stepping in a nest of fire ants.

There isn't much difference in the performance of the two cartridges, so the only possible difference I could see would be in the hands of the person using them.

As far as the Miami shootout, there were many failures of strategy and training involved. Blaming the whole mess (as many still do) on the performance of one bullet doesn't doom the whole cartridge to a life of mediocrity.
 
125gr .357 bullet at 1310 ft/s
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That's a pretty mild 125 grain bullet from a .357. There are a few brands (Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Fiocchi, etc.) that make 1600 fps or more from a 4-6" barrel. That's 60%+ more kinetic energy carried than the 9mm at 1260 fps.
 
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I had an LCP that I traded for a KT PF-9, because I wanted a larger caliber and knew that I'd always be able to carry it. I'm now trading my 9mm Jericho that was going to be used in my vehicle/house/when I travel for a Sig 220 because I have more peace of mind with a larger round if I don't have to worry about the size of the gun.
 
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A well placed shot with a 22magnum will stop anybody any size just as fast as a not so well placed shot from virtually any other firearm in real life situations.

Best thing is to have a pistol that you can shoot well.

Stopping power is just as much accuracy as it is anything else.

Myself I think for defense purposes a 22 Magnum Kel Tec PMR30 that is small, light, accurate and holds 30 rounds of 22 magnum is all the "stopping power" one will ever need.
 
The shortcomings of the 9 has been extensively documented since the 1986 Miami Shootout. Just because the military got stupid doesn't change the facts. The only 35 worth it's salt on people is a 357mag with 125s.
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Should put the "shortcomings" in their proper time period in bullet evolutionary history. The greatest shortcomings of the 9mm after the Miami shootout resulted from so many LE agencies parroting the FBI's choice of the subsonic, and anemic, 147 gr. For the FBI, that was a temorary choice while they looked for something better, while many local LE agency bureaucrats maintained it as their duty ammo.

I think we're overlooking that the ammo choice within the caliber can be more important than the caliber.

9mm +P+ has worked well enough for many LE agencies that they never felt the need to change. Some upgraded to .357 SIG or .40 Cal. when their guns wore out.


The .357 SIG works very well, also. Don't know of any agencies that scrapped the Sig round because it was inefficient on the street.

The 1400 fps that Speer and Corbon 125 gr. ammo produces in my P229's fully equals the velocity achieved by many (but certainly not all) 4" .357 mag. revolvers.

To duplicate the .357 mag. rd. as closely as possible in the .357 SIG, the Corbon 125 gr. Sierra sheds it's jacket just like the famous revolver round. A feature that didn't exactly hurt the "stopping power" reputation of the Magnum.

All other SIG ammo is designed to hold together against most anything.


Just my thoughts on the matter.:cool:
 
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Deaf smith, i do have a 12 guage. Its a remington marine magnum, it will stop ya for sure.
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Gunguy,

I have no doubt!

Now according to Ayoob, there are a few, yes a few, documented cases where a BG took a shotgun blast or two and stood! But very very rare!

My wife has worked in Truama I, ER, CVICU, CV OR, and she says in the ER they had lots of people come in shot.

Those shot with .22/.25 many times walked in complaining. As the cartridges power and shot placement improved more were carried in, some though still talking.

But, those hit square with a shotgun were always carried in, and NEVER talking (or even awake.)

She said those shot with shotguns didn't look so bad when they cleaned up all the blood, but when they cracked open their chest, there was so much internal bleeding from so many organs hit, it was hard to stop all the bleeding.

And while my favorite HD long gun is my M1 Carbine, I do also have a 12.. in fact three of them, and all three are fighting shotguns, not birdguns.

Yes gents, shot placement is important. Very important. But life does not always give you that perfect shot placement, and that is why when Jeff Cooper said you should get the most powerful pistol you can handle well and control, he knew what he was talking about.

For some who have physical limits, the .22 is a valid option, just as for some the revolver is a valid option. But try to pack a gun at the upper limiits of what you can control well. Just make sure you can control it one handed (cause that may be the only way you can shoot it in a fight.)

Deaf
 
I thought stopping power was a myth for the longest time. But recently I've come to realize: anything bigger than a .32acp will generally do the job if you're good with the gun.

I believe the old adage is: a hit with an airsoft gun is better than a miss with an ICBM.
 
IMO, selecting a caliber with the intent of depending upon shot placement is the wrong way to go.
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If that's ALL you consider then it might lead you astray. That said, it's certainly a factor you need to take into account. I don't think there are many people who would disagree with the statement that penetration and shot placement are the two most important factors in neutralizing an attacker.

The problem with these discussions is that no one wants to really look at the big picture. There are lots of factors that SHOULD be part of the equation when selecting a firearm/caliber but most people seem to want to focus on just one to make things simple--or maybe to make their point of view seem more logical.
The only thing I can recall from the 1986 report was that the 115gr Silvertip used would have ended the fight earlier; but it lacked sufficient penetration.
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It's worth noting that by blaming the outcome of the fight on bullet selection, the FBI avoided answering some unpleasant questions.

It's also important to understand that the bullet that supposedly didn't have "sufficient penetration" went through the assailant's upper arm at an angle, penetrating several inches of tissue. It then exited the arm and entered the chest already expanded. It penetrated the chest from the right side and stopped just short of the heart. Experts I've seen indicate that penetrating skin is the equivalent of a couple of inches of tissue penetration. The bullet exited the skin of the arm expanded. If you factor that in, I believe the bullet actually penetrated enough to satisfy the FBI's current penetration specifications. And even though it stopped short of the heart, it still resulted in a wound that doctors agree was unsurvivable.

Again, people like to try to boil complicated issues down to a single factor. That may make things nice and tidy but unfortunately it also inevitably results in an oversimplification that can invalidate the conclusions drawn.
 
It's also important to understand that the bullet that supposedly didn't have "sufficient penetration" went through the assailant's upper arm at an angle, penetrating several inches of tissue. It then exited the arm and entered the chest already expanded. It penetrated the chest from the right side and stopped just short of the heart.
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...which is pretty much exemplary performance for any service handgun cartridge.

Something else to remember when bringing up the Miami shooting: agents didn't get shot because they were using Silvertips. They got shot because they engaged two determined, well-armed, well-trained individuals who had military training and no desire to be taken alive. They boxed in two feral animals armed with a long gun at point-blank range.

There were problems with communication. There were problems with tactics. There were problems with one agent's glasses. There were problems with marksmanship.

But it was easier to say that Jerry Dove's choice of ammunition got him killed. There were many other factors.

Outside of "that Miami shootout thing," I've heard very few verifiable cases of the 9mm failing a competent user.
 
The shortcomings of the 9 has been extensively documented since the 1986 Miami Shootout. Just because the military got stupid doesn't change the facts. The only 35 worth it's salt on people is a 357mag with 125s.
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If memory serves, I seem to recall that the Miami shootout was ended by a couple of shots from a 357 revolver firing 38spl rounds. Probably the famous FBI load.
 
I believe the old adage is: a hit with an airsoft gun is better than a miss with an ICBM.
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Not against a hardened ICBM silo.

And a miss with a 20 megaton warhead... will still get the job done.

Deaf
 
I've not yet seen a reference to the Stopping Power Book.
In the book, the results of many shootings are rank ordered for caliber and load.
According to actual results, the 9mm in +P and +P+ loadings is roughly as effective as the 40 or 45.
In their best loadings all three have proven to deliver a "one shot stop" about 9 times out of 10 (90%).
A certain bullet might be effective 9.4 times out of 10 (94%), but generally the data supports the notion that bullet selection is fairly important and there isn't a lot of practical difference between the best ones in 9, 40 and 45.
However, if you load your 9mm with 147 gr. HP then it has proven to deliver a "one shot stop" about 7 times out of 10.
Some of the bullets have been used in 100 or more shootings, which makes the results seem convincing.

I know they counted any hit in the thorax and some would certainly be better than others, guts versus sternum; but the sheer numbers of shootings for some of the loads (100 +) should include the good & bad for each, making the average effectiveness represenative.

Any thoughts?
 
stopping power

a word of caution regarding 9mm +p and +p+, be aware of risk of over penetration. especially in 115gr bullets exceeding 1300 fps(fairly uncommon). i dont have, nor am aware of a over penetration matrix. bullet wieght/caliber/ velocity/target depth/etc. i dont have much data on any other caliber either.

i urge 9mm fans to investigate hornady critical defense. i have chronoed them on multiple occations. the velocity is in the 1100fps range consistantly. Additionally the powder is low flash. out of a glock 19 in low light the flash is mild. the ftx provides good preliminary test data. no real world terminal data exsists to my knowledge.

in regards to caliber, the argument of 9mm and .45 is over something like .095", about 400fps and roughly 25fpe. thats not a huge variance. its not worth the time.

consider this though: terminal ballistics aside and extierior ballistics in a hand gun virtually moot, in my opinion the major difference is capacity.

i have (and love) a sig 220 with 8 +1 rounds but its quite heavy. anybody carry one on a daily basis? ... other than duty? i doubt it. i dont know what the most common .45 platform is but id guess some sort of 1911. 30-40 oz. thats heavy. a 9mm affords me many more rounds for less wieght.

i prefer a glock 19. i have one set up for IDPA and one for almost daily carry. i have about 3500 rounds through one so far this year with only 2 cleanings. i find them to be quite reliable. and if i feel it warranted i can grab a spare mag and have 31 rounds on my person.

why would 31 rounds be necessary? doesnt matter, insert any generic scenario; multiple scumbags, a pack of feral detroit canine, prolonged social issue, whatever. id rather have it and not need it ...........

my 2 cents
 
I think that same book lists 9mm fmj at 60% one shot stop.

So if you make 2 shots with a 9mm fmj you have a 84% chance of a 2 shot stop with fmj:D
 
I try not to but into this business of "over-penetration". There are incredibly higher incidents every year of negligent discharges or people completely missing their target and hurting/killing someone because of it. For me, over-penetration is very nearly a non-issue.

Besides, it's almost like no one would ever dream of shooting someone with something as penetrating as say...

...a rifle round:eek:.

~LT
 
Too often, these debates fail to take into consideration the advances in bullet construction. Today, bullet design has advanced to the point that all the major service cartridges (9mm, .38 Special +P, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP) perform more alike than they do differently. All of these cartridges with modern premium bullets like Speer Gold Dots, Federal HSTs, or Winchester SXTs will reliably penetrate 12-14" and expand to .60-.70". It is possible to get markedly different performance between the service calibers (and we do when we compared dated bullet designs like Winchester Silvertips) but it's really a moot point because modern premium ammo all performs about the same and is designed to do so. Due to the FBI's studies, everyone seems to want 1.5-2X expansion and 12-16" penetration, so that's what the ammo makers provide.

It is not until we either go up to Magnum-type cartridges like .41 Magnum or .44 Magnum or when we go down to pocket gun type calibers like .32 Auto, .25 ACP, or .22 Long Rifle that we really see markedly different performance. The dividing lines seem to be .380 Auto and standard pressure .38 Special at the low end and .357 Magnum and full-power 10mm Auto at the high end. .380 and standard pressure .38 can provide service caliber type performance, but only in a few premium loadings. Conversely, .357 Magnum and full-power 10mm can provide service caliber like performance even with dated bullet designs, but can also provide significantly greater expansion and/or penetration with certain premium bullets.
 
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