Stopping Power
- Thread starter GunGuy34
- Start date
America need to replace their old 45. Nato uses 9mm so we went with the 9mm after all they followed us on the 5.56 round .
Military doesn't always make the right choice it has to play the game of politicians . Remember the military s money comes from the government. and our government wanted cruise missles in Italy at that time.
I think 9mm with FMJ is a terrible SD round I think with a good HP is a fine round
Military doesn't always make the right choice it has to play the game of politicians . Remember the military s money comes from the government. and our government wanted cruise missles in Italy at that time.
I think 9mm with FMJ is a terrible SD round I think with a good HP is a fine round
The very best 9mm JHPs between 115gr and 130gr rated +P are not bad at all. Winchester's 127+P Ranger, Cor-Bon's DPX and Speer's 124+P Gold Dot are all damned good rounds.
Most of the 147s suck. A lot of the standard pressure JHPs are iffy. The 9mm has that problem whereby the hollowpoint needs to be fairly small to get up the feed ramp easily, that means you need some velocity to make it work. They can't run cavities the size of, say, Speer's 135gr 38+P. That's why that particular Speer load even out of a snubby is round for round more potent than a lot of 9mm stuff - it's down on power over even standard pressure 9mm but it still keeps up and then some with a superb no-compromise slug.
You also need some 9mm barrel length for the same reason. I don't trust a lot of the 3" or shorter barrel variants. The Glock26 is an exception - Glock barrels in general tend to "spit fast" and that's one of the few "shorty" 9mms I'd have a lot of use for if I was into small autos.
Most of the 147s suck. A lot of the standard pressure JHPs are iffy. The 9mm has that problem whereby the hollowpoint needs to be fairly small to get up the feed ramp easily, that means you need some velocity to make it work. They can't run cavities the size of, say, Speer's 135gr 38+P. That's why that particular Speer load even out of a snubby is round for round more potent than a lot of 9mm stuff - it's down on power over even standard pressure 9mm but it still keeps up and then some with a superb no-compromise slug.
You also need some 9mm barrel length for the same reason. I don't trust a lot of the 3" or shorter barrel variants. The Glock26 is an exception - Glock barrels in general tend to "spit fast" and that's one of the few "shorty" 9mms I'd have a lot of use for if I was into small autos.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Soldiers also carry MREs, so they must be good to eat!
I am sorry, but this is poor logic. Some soldiers may carry 9mm pistols, but the gun is only a small part of the picture. Soldiers don't usually fight alone while defending their homes as they are usually in groups and so they have group protection as a result. Soldiers wear body armor. Soldiers often have the options of calling in fire support or air support. Soldiers often travel with trained medical personnel.
N.H. Yankee
New member
I feel a well designed 9mm round will do anything a 45acp will do IF put in the right place. The difference I feel is when you get a marginal hit the 45acp may tend to incapacitate one quicker than the 9mm. In a perfect world the higher capacity 9mm would trump the 45acp, but as we all know perfection is not part of the landscape.
I think the bigger issue is proficiency with a given caliber and concealment issues. Sometimes a 45 just isn't going to work with the attire one is wearing on a particular day. I often carry a XD subcompact 9mm, and when attire allows I carry a 40cal FNP.
I think the bigger issue is proficiency with a given caliber and concealment issues. Sometimes a 45 just isn't going to work with the attire one is wearing on a particular day. I often carry a XD subcompact 9mm, and when attire allows I carry a 40cal FNP.
I used to carry a 9mm...until the idiot who shot up Ft Hood took four rounds and is still around. Upgraded to a .40 S&W and haven't looked back.
I've said this before, but the best handgun round out there, or so I've been told, is the .357 Magnum. I know, I know, shot placement is the key. But IMHO I think people harp on that a little too much. If placed just right, a .22 will kill a BG just as dead as a .357 Mag will...IF it's placed just right. So why aren't we all carrying .22s if "shot placement is the key?"
The reality is that most folks in a life and death situation are unlikely to be able to place their shots with the same level of accuracy they demonstrate during practice, simply because of adrenalin and fear. Therefore, a round sufficiently large and fast enough to get the BG to stop what he's doing if he's hit just about anywhere REALLY is THE key.
Just my $0.02.
I've said this before, but the best handgun round out there, or so I've been told, is the .357 Magnum. I know, I know, shot placement is the key. But IMHO I think people harp on that a little too much. If placed just right, a .22 will kill a BG just as dead as a .357 Mag will...IF it's placed just right. So why aren't we all carrying .22s if "shot placement is the key?"
The reality is that most folks in a life and death situation are unlikely to be able to place their shots with the same level of accuracy they demonstrate during practice, simply because of adrenalin and fear. Therefore, a round sufficiently large and fast enough to get the BG to stop what he's doing if he's hit just about anywhere REALLY is THE key.
Just my $0.02.
I personally use my G19 for home defense loaded with a mag of Speer Gold Dot 124+p and a spare mag of Hornady Critical Defense 115 grain. I've never felt under gunned and personally I like that with 9mm I don't even notice the recoil.
Now I've thought about loading up the Benelli for HD but that's a story for another thread.
Now I've thought about loading up the Benelli for HD but that's a story for another thread.
A .357 magnum has a velocity advantage over even the best 9 mm rounds. It can fire heavier bullets, faster. for example, the
standard factory .357 125 grain HP are between 1400 and 1600,
9mm with a 115 in +p+ from buffalo bore can reach 1400; standard factory rounds are around 1100
Your decision. Faster, heavier, and larger cavity, or slower, lighter, and smaller cavity?
The only logical reason to choose the 9mm is because you choose the pistols that shoot it.
standard factory .357 125 grain HP are between 1400 and 1600,
9mm with a 115 in +p+ from buffalo bore can reach 1400; standard factory rounds are around 1100
Your decision. Faster, heavier, and larger cavity, or slower, lighter, and smaller cavity?
The only logical reason to choose the 9mm is because you choose the pistols that shoot it.
NightSleeper
New member
9mm is more than enough for defense, period. It's an excellent round, hands down. Obviously, a .357 magnum is even better.
I don't buy into the old ".45" club. The .45 round is impeccable, but not the club itself. They are old and grumpy. And stinky!
I don't buy into the old ".45" club. The .45 round is impeccable, but not the club itself. They are old and grumpy. And stinky!
The BEST handgun round in the world is the WORST round to bring to a gunfight.
The military chose the 9mm FMJ for several reasons. It's cheap and plentiful. The rest of NATO uses it and we had to follow along to be "compatible". They're not interested in killing the enemy. They want to wound. A FMJ round goes through with little tissue damage, leaving a wounded soldier that two or more healthy soldiers/jeeps/helicopters have to carry back to an aid station or MASH unit. Several JHPs will probably kill him and he'll simply be left where he lies - thereby freeing up the above-mentioned soldiers to continue fighting.
The military chose the 9mm FMJ for several reasons. It's cheap and plentiful. The rest of NATO uses it and we had to follow along to be "compatible". They're not interested in killing the enemy. They want to wound. A FMJ round goes through with little tissue damage, leaving a wounded soldier that two or more healthy soldiers/jeeps/helicopters have to carry back to an aid station or MASH unit. Several JHPs will probably kill him and he'll simply be left where he lies - thereby freeing up the above-mentioned soldiers to continue fighting.
Cheapshooter
New member
Stopping power = shot placement + penetration.
A well places fmj 380 that penetrates the spine and severs the spinal cord is an instant stopping shot. A 45 acp, 357, or 500 S&W that only goes through flesh is far from an instant stop. IMHO
A well places fmj 380 that penetrates the spine and severs the spinal cord is an instant stopping shot. A 45 acp, 357, or 500 S&W that only goes through flesh is far from an instant stop. IMHO
Super-Dave
New member
Most of the self defense bullets availiable have been around almost 20 years.
If you go back and look at expansion results from the 80-90's there are not very good at all. My question is for those bullets that have been around
gold dot, hst, golden saber, xtp
have the bullets been redesigned since the 80's/90's? or is the testing criteria different than it was 20 years ago?
If you go back and look at expansion results from the 80-90's there are not very good at all. My question is for those bullets that have been around
gold dot, hst, golden saber, xtp
have the bullets been redesigned since the 80's/90's? or is the testing criteria different than it was 20 years ago?
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Because .22LR often lacks penetration and can be deflected easily - it is hard to place the shot if you can't penetrate deeply enough to hit the target or if the shot veers off in another direction after being deflected by bone.
I guarantee you that any soldier who resorts to using a pistol in combat wants to kill his opponent right then and there.
Handguns kill by crushing tissue and destroying the central nervous system (or causing a sufficient drop in blood pressure through blood loss that the central nervous system shuts down).
So, given equivalent penetration, a .45ACP is going to be superior to the 9mm in the following respects:
1) You can place the shot 0.10" further away from the central nervous system.
2) Time for blood pressure to drop will be reduced by however much extra blood loss the extra 0.10" of crushed tissue causes - which is probably still a lot longer than you are going to want to have someone shoot at you.
Assuming you've got a round that reliably shoots in your handgun and can penetrate 12"-18" of ballistics gel, there really isn't too much more you can do to improve your odds via handgun ammunition selection.
Yes, many of them have.
Jeez, Jim. Don't hold back or anything!
Not that you aren't right, of course
I never understood the fad for the 147 grainers, and they tend to be somewhat unreliable.I've been hearing for years that the 9mm is somehow inadequate. The arguments always quote Marshall/Sanow and/or the Miami FBI shooting. That's old data, and frankly full of holes.
I know two civilians and several officers who've used 9mm in self-defense shootings. The 9mm worked in one shot for both civilians. In cases where it didn't quite save the day for the officer, they admit that shot placement was hindered by circumstances such as cover or darkness.
I hear people who've never been in any sort of confrontation tell me that 9mm isn't enough, or that they need to "upgrade" to something else. Based on what, I don't know. If it makes them feel better, great, but I've no reservations about it.