Stopping Power

There is a scene from "Guys and Dolls" where Marlon Brando explains circumstances where a deck of cards will spit lemon juice into his ear.

There will always be people who have seen bizarre and singular events to try and prove an entire code of behavior. This does not excuse us from proffering sound and positive advice.

If the only way you can survive life in your world is to launch only large caliber 230 grain bullets, your problem is not ballistics. It is a problem of judgement.
 
I wish I were an expert too, until then I just try to shoot straight.

When I took the defensive shooting course to satisfy training for the concealed weapons permit, the instructor snickered when he saw that I would be doing the shooting portion with a Browning Buckmark. A little later he was laughing, with delight, as I was several shots through the same hole in the targets. Others with centerfire handguns weren't even on the paper with many of their shots.

I carry a 9mm now. Just be familiar with the tool you use. I don't ever expect to have to use it against man or beast(well except that damned ground hog in the backyard).
 
You know, I can't help but think that those who say that no one needs a large caliber or high capacity gun are just as closed-minded as those who say that everyone needs one. Choosing a self-defense firearm is a very personal thing that requires you to examine yourself and your own circumstances.

Personally, I typically carry either a .357 or .44 Magnum revolver. The reasons for this are as follows:

First off, I'm a pretty large guy (6'4" and 280lbs) so anyone likely to attack me is either very, very large or unable to feel pain due to insanity or some sort of mind-altering substance. I do not frequent areas where multiple attackers or gang activity is common or likely so a high-capacity gun isn't really a necessity for me. Because, however, of the types of people most likely to attack me, I feel that a powerful handgun with lots of penetration that will reliably break bones is the most prudent choice. I have found methods of dress that allow me to conceal my chosen weapons with relative ease and comfort and I practice enough with them to remain proficient.

These circumstances make my chosen handguns the best ones for me, but the same may not hold true for you. Because I do not know you or your circumstances, I will refrain from telling you the best handgun for you because mine would be an uninformed opinion.
 
The Tourist said:
Well, that's easy to fix. Either choose better places to drink or shop or apply a better application of "condition yellow."

Several decades ago--well before the founding of this forum--my Daddy used to say "If you don't want to get hit by the train, stay off of the tracks."
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I've been fascinated with weapons and martial arts since I was 4. Long ago I learned that what The Tourist is saying is correct. Any viable and credible personal defense system, will stress the idea of avoiding trouble in the first place.

Thats right folks, in case you were not aware of it, avoidance is the #1 self defense weapon.
 
One shot stop

Spent 22 years in the Army and retired. Am a Vietnam vet and now work with the young guns coming back from the sandbox. Here is what the real cowboys say about weapons. They hate the 9mm and are going back to the 45Cal simply put.. one round anywhere in the bod stops them in their tracks where the 9mm frequently does not. Rationale? ... when your runnin and gunin you do not want the other guy on his feet after the first shot. They are saying the same thing about 5.56 vice 7.62. The modern stable 5.56 just goes right through and the bad guys stay on their feet too long. The 7.62 kicks them and puts them down...
 
Sir, thank you for your service. It has been my distinct privilege to take care of many Vietnam vets as a volunteer at the our local vets' hospital.

From what I gather, your advice is directed at exchanges in combat zones, not streets here in America. Frankly, we already have far too much of this "kill 'em all" philosophy here at TFL, already.

A soldier runs toward gunfire, but there is absolutely no reason for a non-sworn civilian to do the same. Besides injury, there is the probable circumstance of facing the legal system, losing his job and many years of reconstructing his life.

Our conditions are differing.
 
Heck a gal killed her boyfriend last week with a .22, that caliber is deadly period as are all calibers. Some shoot the smaller calibers better than the larger so I say shoot what you are most accurate with cause you most likely wont ever need it unless you go to places that are known hot spots. Hmmm, avoid those places that works for me.

Now I also have to say my cousins sis in law was a store worker in a store here and was shot to her death with a few others. So the other side ot this coin is you cant tell when you will need it, similiar to a motorcycle helmut so the smart thing some say is to always be prepared like the boy scouts say.

I say it is too bad we have to live like this.
 
Choosing a self-defense firearm is a very personal thing...
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That clearly sums up my thoughts.

Two scenario`s, both happened years ago.

Scenario 1: Robber with knife goes into a North Cols. Ohio theatre to rob night disposit employee of money bag. Employee shoots robber with .25acp numerous times in chest. BG gets to employee and manages to stab employee in throat. Both die in lobby.

Scenario 2: Portsmouth, Ohio druggie robs known drug house and gets away.
Goes back next week to rob same drug house:rolleyes:. Owner of house opens door and shoots robber in face with 44mag. Robber lived but looked like something from outer space with part of his jaw, cheekbone missing.

I carry what I feel I`m most accurate with and least likely to malfunction.
 
Did the 22 loose all it's power sense then?
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Well, 50 years ago Winchester 30-30 was considered by many to be a useful bear/moose round. Now you have to have at least a 300 Win Mag, and the thought is that the 30-30 will only make the bear mad.

As far as I know, bears and moose haven't gotten any bigger in the last 50 years :confused: .

50 years from now you'll need at least a .416 Rigby for bear and moose, and .375 H&H for white tail, .338 Lapua for foxes and .30-06 for rabbits :p .
 
I have no problem with the 22 if its the gun one is most proficient with, my biggest fear with a rim fire is CLICK.:eek: I think a person can get quite a few accurate hits with a 22 in quite a less amount of time than a larger center fire, but penetration isn't always going to be adequate. Problem is if the other guy is armed with a large bore, he may die from his wounds but you may well be dead much sooner! I would much prefer at least a 32 and a 380 being twice as preferable.
 
Shot placement is an important, and often cited, consideration regarding the suitability of weapons and ammunition. However, considerations of caliber are equally important and cannot be ignored. For example, a bullet through the central nervous system with any caliber of ammunition is likely to be immediately incapacitating. Even a .22 rimfire penetrating the brain will cause immediate incapacitation in most cases. Obviously, this does not mean the law enforcement agency should issue .22 rimfires and train for head shots as the primary target. The realities of shooting incidents prohibit such a solution.

Few, if any, shooting incidents will present the officer with an opportunity to take a careful, precisely aimed shot at the subject's head. Rather, shootings are characterized by their sudden, unexpected occurrence; by rapid and unpredictable movement of both officer and adversary; by limited and partial target opportunities; by poor light and unforeseen obstacles; and by the life or death stress of sudden, close, personal violence. Training is quite properly oriented towards "center of mass" shooting. That is to say, the officer is trained to shoot at the center of whatever is presented for a target. Proper shot placement is a hit in the center of that part of the adversary which is presented, regardless of anatomy or angle.

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK

FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT
FBI ACADEMY
QUANTICO, VIRGINIA​

I and many other people often carry a small .22,.25,.32, or even the top of this class .356 caliber(.380 ACP) handgun for defense. They are better than no handgun at all, they can be effective. However we should not have the illusion that they are as effective as larger calibers.
 
I'm surprised how many people on TFL say that handguns are weak and underpowered. Compared to what? Rifles and shotguns? That would be similar to saying that a rifle is underpowered compared to a M2 .50 Caliber machine gun. I would prefer a long arm in most defensive situations over a handgun but in most cases a handgun is going to be the best defensive tool you can have because of its portability.

I know there's all these anecdotal stories of people being shot numerous times by handguns and still coming but that's not the norm. Even though you're chances of stopping someone quickly are much higher with a long arm there's still numerous examples of handguns performing the same task and being adequate for the job, especially at close ranges. There's also examples of rifles and shotguns failing to stop someone right away. I guess I am just surprised by how often I hear about people saying handguns are underpowered considering how lethal they are compared to weapons that aren't firearms. I wouldn't be so quick to write handguns off as an effective defensive tool.
 
There is no such thing as a handgun having "stopping power".

A bullet penetrates a living body, and does damage to that body as it passes through. How much damage, and where it occurs will determine how quickly that body will be disabled.

Bigger diameter bullets have the advantage of making a bigger hole, and heavier bullets have the advantage of penetrating deeper (all else being equal), but if the damage doesn't occur in the right place, then it may not incapacitate the body like it otherwise would.

It IS about shot placement, but it's also about using a cartridge and bullet that is suitable for the needs of the shooter.

A .22 will certainly kill, and it will disable an attacker. The question is, what bullet placement will be required, and how soon will the threat be stopped?

A bigger bullet at sufficient velocity offers an advantage; the question is, is that advantage needed, and the answer will depend on the situation.

And when dealinig with the unknown, I want to be prepared for whatever threat I might face. A .22 LR does not supply that level of comfort for me, so I carry something larger. How large depends on where I'm at, what I'm doing, and what I might need that handgun for.

A .22 LR can be perfectly adequate; or not, depending on the situation and what you need it to do.

Daryl
 
I'm surprised how many people on TFL say that handguns are weak and underpowered. Compared to what? Rifles and shotguns? That would be similar to saying that a rifle is underpowered compared to a M2 .50 Caliber machine gun. I would prefer a long arm in most defensive situations over a handgun but in most cases a handgun is going to be the best defensive tool you can have because of its portability.

I know there's all these anecdotal stories of people being shot numerous times by handguns and still coming but that's not the norm. Even though you're chances of stopping someone quickly are much higher with a long arm there's still numerous examples of handguns performing the same task and being adequate for the job, especially at close ranges. There's also examples of rifles and shotguns failing to stop someone right away. I guess I am just surprised by how often I hear about people saying handguns are underpowered considering how lethal they are compared to weapons that aren't firearms. I wouldn't be so quick to write handguns off as an effective defensive tool.
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I agree with you. When I read that handguns are "less than adequate", in whatever form is chosen by the author, I just figure that the author is inexperienced with handgun use.

The toughest, most dangerous game on planet earth have all been successfully hunted with handguns. Deer and similar sized game are taken regularly with various medium powered handguns, and at ranges that might compete with many folks' shooting skills with a rifle.

And animals don't stop from psychological affects. If they're able, they keep going.

Daryl
 
I believe bigger is better. I believe rifles and shotguns are better at stopping than handguns.

I also believe a bladed weapon, such as a battle axe or halberd has a lot more stopping power than firearms.

All you have to do is look at the momentum transfer and the shearing action. A bladed weapon can shear an arm off, a leg, split a skull to the jaw, or even cut someone in half.

Only non man portable guns have such power.
 
Whenever a first body exerts a force F on a second body, the second body exerts a force −F on the first body. F and −F are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction.
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A guy named Newton came up with that one.
I also long believed the "knock down" theory. Didn't we all? However if you look at it with Mr. Newton's law in mind, If a 45 ACP has that much force, wouldn't the opposite and equal force be enough to knock the shooter down? Especially if you subscribe to the
"A hit anywhere on the body with a 45 will knock them down theory"
Massive damage to the central nervous system, extreme pain, and psychological shock are what put a gunshot victim down.
If they are high on PCP or other hallucinogenic drugs, fear and psychological shock won't do it. On heroin or other opium based pain killers, extreme pain won't do it.
Catastrophic damage to the brain or spine causing immediate paralysis is the only sure instant "knock down"
The above is the theory of incapacitation I now believe is correct.
Not saying that the bigger is better of the 45 is wrong, but shot placement is still #1
 
I always thought the recoil of a handgun was related to that 'equal and opposite reaction' point. I recall one of the guys in the barracks getting a Ruger Blackhawk back in the late 60's. We went out and he shot the 1st shot. The barrel flipped up, hit him in the head, and he went down.

Does that count as a "one shot knock down" ?
 
"...9mm lugar was a rare weapon..." Right. No such thing. Lots of 9mm Luger/Parabellum pistols around in the 60's though. Lugers, BHP's, etc.
In any case, no handgun round gives a 100% guaranteed 1 shot stop.
 
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