Stopping Power

T

Tabdog

New member
I read so many post where nothing short of a 357 is going
to stop a man.

Those guys have been watching way too much Dirty Harry.
They act like they are going to take on a bunch of crazy
zombies in a shopping center or something.

Back in the 1960's, when I was working as a ambulance
jockey, the 9mm lugar was a rare weapon. I have seen
lots of folks shot by shotguns, 45's, 38's, 357,s, 380's, 32's
and 22's.

I can tell you that most were stopped by 22's. It was like
that all over the country back then.

Now, that is real world stopping power.

Did the 22 loose all it's power sense then?

I think not.

Do you know what the odds of hitting someone past 10 feet
is? Less than 1 in 5.

If they are that far away, running would be the best defense.

The chances of the average person needing a gun as powerful
as a 44 Magnum is about the same as hitting $50,000,000 in
the lottery.

I know something that will protect me much better than a 44 Mag.

My brain.

Just an observation,

Tabdog
 
Multiple hits with a 22 are better than a miss or poor hit with a larger bore. The biggest problem with 22 rimfire besides penetration and energy is MISFIRES! I cannot count the amount of times I had bad ammo from just about every manufacturer out there, some much worse than others. I believe a 9mm is minimal due to clothing, point of entry, penetration and reliable expansion. Yes many people have been killed by a 22, 25, 32, 380 and such, but many more have been wounded and walking than with a well placed, well designed bullet from a 9mm on up.
 
Resist the urge to equate stopping power with wounding power or eventual fatality from slow internal bleeding from tiny bullets. Think it thru a little bit and you may conclude that you want something with immediate stopping power, if at all practical. Anything else is just from desperation.
 
Whenever someone uses the phrase "stopping power" (or it's erstwhile cousin, "knock-down power"), I groan a bit inside.

It's all very subjective. I've read Fackler, Marshall/Sanow and all the rest, and I can tell you, it's numbers on paper and hyperbole to sell gun magazines. None of those guys have my back in a gun fight.

Do you gain a slight edge by using one caliber over another? Possibly, but most modern ammunition, including the much-maligned 9mm, will do the job if the shooter does his.

The wisest advice I ever received on the matter was over 25 years ago, and it still applies today: carry the gun you shoot best, and load it with the best ammo you can.
 
I have to agree with Servo. The NYPD SOP 9 study (summarized below) does not support premises that high capacity or specific caliber are significant factors in the ability to stop a gunfight. Shot placement was most important.




Rapid Reloading

The average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed
confrontation was between two and three rounds. The two to three rounds per
incident remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also
substantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6
rounds per encounter were discharged.

The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not
a factor in any of the cases examined.

In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as necessary
to continue the action.

In 6% of the total cases the officer reported reloading. These involved
cases of pursuit, barricaded persons, and other incidents where the action
was prolonged and the distance exceeded the 25 foot death zone.

Bullet Efficiency

During the period 1970 through 1979, the police inflicted 10 casualties for
every one suffered at the hands of their assailants.

In all of the cases investigated, one factor stood out as a proper measure of
bullet efficiency. It was not the size, shape, configuration, composition,
caliber, or velocity of the bullet.

Bullet placement was the cause of death or an injury that was serious enough
to end the confrontation. [/I]
 
I agree with Tom (S), people get all worked up over the “knock down” or “stopping” power and all the other terms they have. I Retired in 2007 from Law Enforcement, have seen in classes, crime scenes, what a bullet will do, any projectile enters the body it can cause death.


I had a friend shoot a guy in clear self defense in the chest with a 45 ACP FMJ at a distance of several feet. The bullet entered the chest and defeflted off a rib and exited his side, hitting his elbow crushing it causing the most serious injury (his arm). Then know of a case where a guy robbed a drug dealer issued threats and ran out the door and down the street. The “victim” drug dealer ran out with a 22 rifle and fired hitting the guy in the back at 25 yards. The man dropped dead on the road.


I carry what I shoot all the time and shoot well, a Kimber CDP 4” 45 ACP, with my hand loads (that opens another debate) and feel if required it would offer protection. The point is if you decide to carry a weapon, know all the laws of the State you are in, not a rule of thumb. Also train with it and practice, practice, practice, it is an awesome responsibility.
 
Back in the 1960's, when I was working as a ambulance
jockey, the 9mm lugar was a rare weapon. I have seen
lots of folks shot by shotguns, 45's, 38's, 357,s, 380's, 32's
and 22's.

I can tell you that most were stopped by 22's. It was like
that all over the country back then.
Click to expand...

40-50 year old qualitative anecdotal recollections are hard to trust when it comes to quantifiable relationships.

Resist the urge to equate stopping power with wounding power or eventual fatality from slow internal bleeding from tiny bullets.
Click to expand...

Right. All those folks "stopped" by a .22 back then were stopped how fast or how effectively? Were the folks "stopped" by .22s precluded from performing any harmful tasks after being shot?

Do you know what the odds of hitting someone past 10 feet
is? Less than 1 in 5.
Click to expand...

Based on what?

If they are that far away, running would be the best defense.
Click to expand...

The chances of the average person needing a gun as powerful
as a 44 Magnum is about the same as hitting $50,000,000 in
the lottery.
Click to expand...

Based on what? Is the ratio based on every needing a .44 mag or ever needing one for those who need to use a gun in self defense?

So then what are the chances of needing a 9mm, .380, .32, .45 acp?
 
I think you should do some research before you start giving your "facts". The .22 will not do near the damage a .357 jhp or even a 9mm jhp. The amount of blood loss will be much greater and faster with the more powerful rounds.

Only hit a human sized object 1 in 5 at 10 feet? My 13 year old daughter could do it blindfolded under stress, I mean 5 out of 5. She is not an experienced shooter either.

If you have two people pointing loaded guns at you, one a .22 and the other a .45 which one would you rather be shot with in the chest or does it matter? Ending the fight as quickly as possible is the goal. I've shot all kinds of things with both rounds and it's pretty obvious which will do the most damage the fastest.

Maybe the military and law enforcement only need .22s. It would probably save enough money to pay off the national deficit.
 
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While some people over caliber on what is best for SD, lots of people on this forum are fairly intelligent and know that the .22 is quite dangerous. Just because it is dangerous doesnt mean its as good as a larger caliber for SD.

I think Servo put it best in his post.

Stopping power always gets an UUUGGHHH from me!
 
Mindset.

Enough with all the "what small caliber round will kill a person" horse manure. All of them will. Whether .25 ACP or .380. Yes the answer is any round can kill a person.

Now, if talking about self defense, the object discussion among sensible folks is NEVER about KILLING EFFECTIVENESS. That is morbid and indicates immaturity and questionable mindset.

In a defensive gunfight the only objective is to survive. If that means fleeing as a most efficient path then take it. If it means shooting at an adversary the objective is to stop the mortal threat such adversary projects. Usually the optimum response for a firearms encounter to shut down an armed adversary would be a well placed head shot which effects the brain stem. Most cannot make that happen so center mass is the next best bet. Even then the desired result is to stop the threat . . . not ever killing. Yes, that is the final outcome in most stop the threat shootings, but never should be the desire of a defensive shooter.

Stopping the threat (if you carry a gun defensively) should assume the adversary will be similarly armed. Then the objective would be to stop them from shooting you. A minimally efficient round, while being a "killer" makes no difference if the adversary has the time and ability to injure or kill you. Just makes the coroner have to figure out who shot who and who died first. You won't care because you'll be dead as will your adversary.

You all do what you like, but personally, I'll place my faith (and life) in the ability to deliver a 9mm, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP or like round to the best of my ability should the need ever unfortunately arise. I pray it never does, but should that happen, the last thing I'll be wondering about is how well .22 LR rounds can stop a guy who's shooting at me.
 
Way too many Rambo wannabes on here. I can't believe the amount of talk that goes on about how many rounds to carry, extra mags, quick reloads, etc. What situations do these people see themselves getting into? Outside of law enforcement it's pure fantasy. I carry a gun that I'm very familiar with, I don't carry extra mags, I'm a very good shot, and if I can I will get as far away from the situation as I can and then call the police. If I can't get away, I'm absolutely certain that I can adequately defend myself with any caliber I'm comfortable shooting in a gun I'm familiar with. Very few people are street smart enough to prevent being attacked until it's too late. They're just going to have their gun taken away by the assailant.
 
The biggest reason for an extra magazine is malfunction. If you have a mag that is giving you trouble for some reason, you're not going to have the time to troubleshoot it.

I don't want to get shot with any of them, but if you made me choose 357 or 22, I'd take my chances and hope that the 22 didn't go bang.
 
GEEZ LOUISE! Some of you people need to spend a lot less time in front of the TV dreaming about your chance to take a BG out. I didn't read anything vague about the studies that were posted earlier and they seem pretty clear. Spend a lot more time training with you weapon than worrying about the caliber.
 
I always read the stopping power threads here at TFL for a :D. I line up on the projectile placement side of the line. A point to keep in mind, average rounds in a gunfight are just that an average. There are no pre-indicators that "your specific gunfight" will meet the guidelines for AVERAGE.

GEEZ LOUISE! Some of you people need to spend a lot less time in front of the TV dreaming about your chance to take a BG out. I didn't read anything vague about the studies that were posted earlier and they seem pretty clear. Spend a lot more time training with you weapon than worrying about the caliber.
Click to expand...

This from a fellow who calls himself 41mag10mm :confused:


NoSecondBest
Way too many Rambo wannabes on here. I can't believe the amount of talk that goes on about how many rounds to carry, extra mags, quick reloads, etc. What situations do these people see themselves getting into? Outside of law enforcement it's pure fantasy. I carry a gun that I'm very familiar with, I don't carry extra mags, I'm a very good shot, and if I can I will get as far away from the situation as I can and then call the police. If I can't get away, I'm absolutely certain that I can adequately defend myself with any caliber I'm comfortable shooting in a gun I'm familiar with. Very few people are street smart enough to prevent being attacked until it's too late. They're just going to have their gun taken away by the assailant.
Click to expand...

The man whom you have taken your name from, "No second place Winners", Bill Jordan, is VERY specific about living or dieing by the "equipment check". "be suspicious of ever part of your gear, check it often, have extra ammo." As AcridSaint stated earlier, self loading pistols fail at the magazine, Glock perfection is not when the plastic floor plate fractures and all of your rounds are laying on the ground. For you to label one a RAMBO for considering carrying a spare magazine is ONE of the reasons that reading this thread has been so much fun :rolleyes:.

I believe the human body is a tough and resistant target. I believe that there are two effective places to attack a human body the head and the heart. I believe that all things given, the larger the hole in these two points the quicker the action will be over. I believe on any given day, your target may not accept the flavor of the rounds you fire at him with the respect and reverence that you expect.

Good Luck & Stay Safe
 
NoSecondBest said:
Way too many Rambo wannabes on here. I can't believe the amount of talk that goes on
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention that. I agree, however, I've had this same conversation in PMs with two mods this week. Supposedly I was denigrating the members. Yikes.

Here's some very bad news. Doing something stupid is going to "denigrate" your body far more than the worse butt-chewing I know how to hand out.

Even fiction writer and SEAL Richard Marchinko states that "we sweateth in practice so we do not bleedeth in action." How many times do fudds have to type this?

I have wondered if the character Leroy Jethro Gibbs in the TV show "NCIS" is from the writers actually watching prospects earn their patch--including the head slap. We are hard on them, and for a good reason. Guard rails and stupid fights are amazingly hard on your life span.

At our clubhouse we have a flag-pole. It is built on a patio comprised of black bricks--each one to represent a dead member in memorium. We have fourteen engraved bricks.

I see no difference here. Foolish behavior with a firearm is the same thing as foolish behavior with a motorcycle. In the end, I don't care if some mall ninja gets his lifestyle criticized--he's out in the world with my family and friends, a bizarre view of himself and a loaded gun.

Mod or not, I'm not going to stop harping on this.
 
This from a fellow who calls himself 41mag10mm
Click to expand...

I'm a long time fan of both calibers but don't carry either for my CCW weapon. That duty goes to a .38, a .380 or more recently a 9mm. I don't live in an area with anything more dangerous than 2 legged creatures.
 
Let's get some misconceptions out of the way. We want to stop a fight right? The majority of BG's will run at the sight of a gun. Thus stopping the fight. Many of the remaining BG's that don't run at the sight of a gun will run at the first sound of a shot, whether it be a hit or not, whether it's a .22 or a .44. Thus stopping the fight. BG's don't generally want to slug it out with an armed victim.

OK, so now we are left with the rare occasion where you have a true loony like the recent pentagon shooter..... A good percentage of the time a .22 will stop THIS fight as quick as a .45 BUT not always. To think that it is nuts.

LK
 
L_Killkenny said:
a true loony
Click to expand...

Well, that's easy to fix. Either choose better places to drink or shop or apply a better application of "condition yellow."

Several decades ago--well before the founding of this forum--my Daddy used to say "If you don't want to get hit by the train, stay off of the tracks."

We seem to keep stressing the same unhealthy conduct, which is finding ways to shoot. No matter what scenario is described, living in a world of flying hot lead is going to be more dangerous than living in peace.

Edit: And BTW, that comes from 'true loony.' I'm bipolar.
 
Speaking of anecdotal data from years past - I have a friend who's older than most of us here on the forums. He worked law enforcement in the 40's after the war. He told me about a man who he'd seen shot in a bar fight, shot in the head with a 45 and kept fighting.

I asked him what the circumstances were, did the bullet graze him, pass through the brain? Was it the alcohol or some drug? His response was no - it hit him square in the forehead and stopped, only broke the skin. Guess it was a dud load. Does that mean I'd rather have a 22 today?
 
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