Double Naught Spy
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Actually, some do, and were designed to do so.
Stopping power, true or fiction?
- Thread starter g.willikers
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Actually, some do, and were designed to do so.
I agree with the above, except that passing out from shock should be put somewhere in there.
I'm not sure if it would be psychological or physiological, but a person's body can shut itself down before blood loss forces it, and without a conscious "ouch that hurts" decision. Think TKO from body shots in a boxing match.
Not that it's particularly helpful though, as what will send a person into shock is probably even more variable than terminal ballistics.
zombietactics
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In this context "shock" is generally defined as lack of perfusion of blood to vital organs like the brain.
As such, shock is one effect of massive blood loss ... especially when it results in a drop of blood pressure.
So, item "II" above: "... massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function ..." pretty much covers that.
As such, shock is one effect of massive blood loss ... especially when it results in a drop of blood pressure.
So, item "II" above: "... massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function ..." pretty much covers that.
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Frank Ettin
Administrator
The term "shock" is also sometimes used to refer to "acute stress reaction", a psychological response to extreme trauma.
I doubt anyone here would disagree that a .50 BMG shot to the middle torso has a much better chance of immediately incapacitating an assailant than a .22 LR shot at precisely the same spot. The question that remains is how much difference is there in the calibers in between? Or how about a tank mortar round to the torso?
I choose to balance "damage per shot" with "number of shots available". My HD pistol is a 9mm 18+1 with Federal HST cartridges. My HD shotgun is a semi-auto 12ga with 8+1 rounds of #4 buckshot.
I choose to balance "damage per shot" with "number of shots available". My HD pistol is a 9mm 18+1 with Federal HST cartridges. My HD shotgun is a semi-auto 12ga with 8+1 rounds of #4 buckshot.
zombietactics
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RE:
Yes, but it should be clear that this is mostly because the .50BMG is travelling at ~3000fps, and thus likely to produce secondary wounding effects, as is typical of high velocity rounds. The 22LR is small and light, but more importantly travelling well below the range of velocities which produced large secondary wounding effects.
If you changed nothing about the rounds except the velocities ... sending a 22LR type projectile at ~3000fps and a .50BMG type projectile at 1000fps ... the effects would be mostly (comparatively/qualitatively) reversed.
Yes, but it should be clear that this is mostly because the .50BMG is travelling at ~3000fps, and thus likely to produce secondary wounding effects, as is typical of high velocity rounds. The 22LR is small and light, but more importantly travelling well below the range of velocities which produced large secondary wounding effects.
If you changed nothing about the rounds except the velocities ... sending a 22LR type projectile at ~3000fps and a .50BMG type projectile at 1000fps ... the effects would be mostly (comparatively/qualitatively) reversed.
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johnelmore
New member
My personal opinion is these non-stop internet threads about stopping power are futile. If you want to see the effects of a rifle then go to the LiveLeak website and search for Iraq. You are going to see some videos of what that AK47 will do. Its quite effective at stopping. All pistol rounds are weak except if you hit just the right spot. Most training instructors tell me to think in terms of 3 pistol shots instead of 1. In any event all calibers in trained hands will do damage. The effects will not be pleasant and the damage inflicted likely permanent in some form.
My prediction is we will go round and round talking about stopping power in this thread, post up various studies, etc but at the end of the day a rifle is a rifle and a pistol is a pistol. If you want to defend yourself the right way get a rifle. If you cant carry a rifle around then carry whatever pistol works for you. If that little 380 round or the 38 Special is what works for you then train with it. A well placed 380 round is better then a miss with the 40 caliber.
My prediction is we will go round and round talking about stopping power in this thread, post up various studies, etc but at the end of the day a rifle is a rifle and a pistol is a pistol. If you want to defend yourself the right way get a rifle. If you cant carry a rifle around then carry whatever pistol works for you. If that little 380 round or the 38 Special is what works for you then train with it. A well placed 380 round is better then a miss with the 40 caliber.
zombietactics
New member
Not so disappointed. Note that I said "22LR type" and ".50BMG type". I know full well that an actual 22LR soft lead round won't cut it. I'm not trying to be cute, so I apologize for the confusion.
Consider that a 5.56/.223 round is the same diameter however, and hardly much heavier. Even M193 ball will tear stuff up in very nasty ways. There are plenty of lead-nosed rounds which absolutely do not "splat" upon impact.
A .50cal bullet travelling at pistol speeds will poke a very nice 12.5mm hole and not much else, besides over-penetrating like nobody's bidness. There's no doubt that it would be more effective than an actual 22LR at similar speeds.
On the other hand, if you wanted to line up 4-5 guys and shoot them all at once ... or shoot bears ... very nice choice.
Model12Win
Moderator
I think we can all agree that the .45 ACP has the greatest potential to stop of all the defensivie calibers.
That doesn't mean the .45 ACP will stop, at least 100% of the time, but all things considered bigger bullets tend to work better and you aren't getting much bigger than the .45 ACP. Also, while the other calibers might expand the .45 will never shrink.
It's what I trust my life with day in, day out. Nothing else will do for me, because I don't live my life hoping for the best.
I demand it.
-M12 Winny
That doesn't mean the .45 ACP will stop, at least 100% of the time, but all things considered bigger bullets tend to work better and you aren't getting much bigger than the .45 ACP. Also, while the other calibers might expand the .45 will never shrink.
It's what I trust my life with day in, day out. Nothing else will do for me, because I don't live my life hoping for the best.
I demand it.
-M12 Winny
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Why?Model12Win said:
zombietactics
New member
Well, we've reached the part of our program where people just start posting up gun-counter-tough-guy clichés as if they are holy writ from on high. 
It generally goes downhill from there/here.
It generally goes downhill from there/here.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Sadly very true.zombietactics said:
As noted previously the data does not give a specific, clear, firm answer. There is no basis upon which to claim categorically that cartridge X is "best." The best we can really do is suggest that cartridges X, Y, Z, or Q are generally likely to be better choices than cartridges A, B, C, or D.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Well, you could go with .50 GI, if you are hung up on size. Or if you want to be close, go with .44 mag and have a lot more power.
Sure, it will, especially frangible ammo or ammo that otherwise breaks apart.
I primarily carry .45 acp as well and what is supposed to be top notch defensive ammo. However, as far as self defense goes using any pistol caliber is nothing but hoping for the best.
To get back to the OP's article...
I think the main facts of the article are all things we can agree on:
1) Shot placement is a key element of ending a fight with a handgun.
2) That the term "stopping power" doesn't have a clearly define, widely accepted definition, and is largely a marketing term.
My biggest issue with the author is his disregard for testing methods for ammunition. Until he is willing to provide his own deceased loved ones or his own deceased pets for testing purposes, I hope he can understand that balistics gel might be the best option for ammunition testing in a controlled environment free of additional variables that must be accounted for.
I think the main facts of the article are all things we can agree on:
1) Shot placement is a key element of ending a fight with a handgun.
2) That the term "stopping power" doesn't have a clearly define, widely accepted definition, and is largely a marketing term.
My biggest issue with the author is his disregard for testing methods for ammunition. Until he is willing to provide his own deceased loved ones or his own deceased pets for testing purposes, I hope he can understand that balistics gel might be the best option for ammunition testing in a controlled environment free of additional variables that must be accounted for.
Double Naught Spy
New member
LOL, such criteria are wholly unnecessary. Plenty of people are willing to donate or sell their bodies to science and there is a virtual endless supply of livestock carcasses that can be used. So there is no reason to call for Vail to have to use his own family or pets for such testing.
Whether he is willing or not does not detract from the aspect that such tests certainly could be beneficial and provide more relevant information than simple gel testing, though using human or animal bodies comes with additional problems and considerations as well as the need for additional controls to make testing consistent.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Oh, dear - let's go back to the definitive Goat tests, now shall we?
Cliches abound without reference to reference to the actual usage of the scientific method.
Cliches abound without reference to reference to the actual usage of the scientific method.
stopping power
I don't belive shooting at dead flesh is a good indication of "stopping power"
As the flesh bag is already stopped.
A better study would be to get a billion dollar grant to go study munitions effect on all them pigs causing a ruckus down south.
You know, shoot them from all angles with all calibers on several different test subjects. Maybe get a bunch drunk and some hopped up on different drugs and make them real mad.
You know, real science, If it saves just one life it will be worth it!
Jody
I don't belive shooting at dead flesh is a good indication of "stopping power"
As the flesh bag is already stopped.
A better study would be to get a billion dollar grant to go study munitions effect on all them pigs causing a ruckus down south.
You know, shoot them from all angles with all calibers on several different test subjects. Maybe get a bunch drunk and some hopped up on different drugs and make them real mad.
You know, real science, If it saves just one life it will be worth it!
Jody
The term is relevant to discussions of braking systems.
Considering that even gunshot wounds caused by shotguns and rifles may not immediately "stop" someone (or at least stop them from having the ability to continue volitional actions threatening imminent serious bodily injury or death), trying to apply the term to handguns and handgun ammunition probably isn't as useful as some folks might wish.
The use of scientifically conducted ballistic testing using a carefully controlled gel medium, and various intermediate barrier materials, is useful to some degree for helping in the selection of ammunition for specific tasks, but that's not the same thing as trying to determine "stopping power".
More time understanding and developing mindset ... learning to be aware of your surroundings ... developing a strong handgun skillset and supporting it with recurrent training & proper practice ... learning the laws involving the use of force, carrying a weapon, etc ... learning to properly maintain your chosen firearm(s) selected as a dedicated defensive weapon ... developing and maintaining sufficient physical capabilities to permit the safe & effective use of a firearm ... learning & practicing safe storage of firearms so children and other unauthorized persons can't gain access to them ... and probably some other considerations that don't occur to me off the top of my head at the moment, are all arguably more critical than the subject of "stopping power" and how it relates to handguns.
But that's just my thoughts ...
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