Stop school shootings...

[buck460XVR]

Honestly, the death tolls from school shootings are so small as to be almost statistically irrelevant. More people are killed by police in a single year than have ever been killed in school shootings. It's simply a non-issue, in reality.


This agenda doesn't have anything to do with protecting children. It has to do with strengthening and further entrenching the existing political, economic, and social structures of the United States.

So, you're saying what? That because the death toll is so small we should do nothing about it? If you do not think this agenda has anything to do with the protection of children, you need to spend a day or two in A..L.I.C. E. training. While there may be an insignificant amount of folks attempting to use tragedies like this to strengthen their own agenda, 98% of this agenda is about kids and their safety. While overall numbers of students killed by mass shootings may be small compared to other means of death, it still is significant. It is significant because we as parents are entrusting the safety of our children to the schools for 8 hours a day and that is a big responsibility. Used to be school mass shootings were rare, now they have become commonplace, almost weekly/monthly. Right now, Schools have few options as how to protect our kids against active shooters. Most are doing everything they can, within their power and their budgets. It has nothing to do with "strengthening and further entrenching the existing political, economic, and social structures of the United States", but everything to do with protecting students.

Mass School shootings in this country are a bi-product of the gun culture instilled here. This is a fact. While we may argue that those "nut cases" will do the same harm with fire bombs, toxic gas or motor vehicles, the truth remains the availability of firearms is why those "nut cases" are using guns. Period. Our choices are, either reduce the availability/access to firearms for the general public or give more protection to the innocent from those that wish to do them harm with firearms. This is why states have given us the right to carry concealed...to protect ourselves from others that wish to do us harm. Many spend many thousands of dollars to get the right set-up/rig to protect themselves and their family when walking down the street, but whine when they are asked to contribute a small amount to protect their kids at school. Don't make much sense to me. Mental health, family values, ethnicity, parenting has little to do with it and is a much bigger problem to solve than a few pieces of bullet-proof glass, solid metal doors, automatic locks and swipe cards. If we take away the guns, we still have to protect the students from harm if the other methods are employed, i.e. shatter resistant glass, solid metal doors, automatic locks and swipe cards.

 

[zukiphile]

So, you're saying what? That because the death toll is so small we should do nothing about it?

I don't believe anyone here has suggested that nothing should be done about deadly acts in schools.

Noting that the number of deaths is actually very low should serve to preserve a sense of perspective about the problem.

While overall numbers of students killed by mass shootings may be small compared to other means of death, it still is significant. It is significant because we as parents are entrusting the safety of our children to the schools for 8 hours a day and that is a big responsibility. Used to be school mass shootings were rare, now they have become commonplace, almost weekly/monthly.

Before proceeding to a sweeping change in public policy, it seems reasonable to ask both 1) whether these acts are actually very much more common than they were historically, 2) if they are, what produced the increased frequency.

We already had a gun culture and plenty of firearms in prior decades, so those are unlikely to be the pertinent variable.

Mass School shootings in this country are a bi-product of the gun culture instilled here. This is a fact. While we may argue that those "nut cases" will do the same harm with fire bombs, toxic gas or motor vehicles, the truth remains the availability of firearms is why those "nut cases" are using guns. Period.

So is it the culture, or availability? Europeans have these events as well. Are they the product of their "gun culture. Period"?

A dead child is a tragedy, but I've yet to hear a parent of a child shot in school wish the child had instead been burned or poisoned to death. The means by which the tragedy is achieved doesn't bear on the tragic character of the act. Focusing on the means as if that were integral to the tragedy is an error.

Mental health, family values, ethnicity, parenting has little to do with it...

How do you know? Mental health issue, while they may have little predictive value for violent events, seem to feature to some degree in the high profile stories we've seen.

I don't know that any of those have predictive value, or if their predictive value is so low that they wouldn't be a basis for sound policy.

If we take away the guns, we still have to protect the students from harm if the other methods are employed, i.e. shatter resistant glass, solid metal doors, automatic locks and swipe cards.

This should suggest that guns and an associated culture are not themselves the variable that presents the harm to children.

People will differ as to what constitutes reasonable security for a school. I don't like the business with automatically locking doors and swipe cards; I don't see them as a good fit for an academic institution. However, if parents want that sort of thing we will see more of it even if it isn't a reasonable measure.

 

[buck460XVR]

Before proceeding to a sweeping change in public policy, it seems reasonable to ask both 1) whether these acts are actually very much more common than they were historically, 2) if they are, what produced the increased frequency.

We already had a gun culture and plenty of firearms in prior decades, so those are unlikely to be the pertinent variable.

The gun culture and availability have both evolved over the years. I don't know how old you are, but I'm in my 60s. When I went to High School/College, there were very few if any semi-auto rifles, much less semi-auto handguns in the average gun owner's household. Hi capacity back then was a 5 round mag in a rifle or a 7 rounder in a 1911. Exceptions were .22s. Folks seldom had thousands of rounds of ammo, that's just how it was. They felt lucky to have a box of 20 rifle rounds or a couple 50 round boxes of .22. All this has escalated, along with the culture. Why was it that at one time, all LEOs needed was a 5 shot .38? What changed that they now need a handgun with a 15 round mag, with two extra mags on their belt. Why is there now a Ar-type rifle with 30 round mags in the police car when before all that was needed was a model 97 or a model 12 riot gun? Why is body armor standard wear? Same reason we now need more security at schools. The escalation of our gun culture. Along with the increase in firepower in the already instilled culture, was the increase in social media and news broadcasts, and the new way to become a household name. Sensationalism of the news 24 hours a day became the norm as opposed to the business type way it used to be broadcast, once a day. Used to be when folks killed, they killed someone specific and for a purpose. Now, the trend is to kill the most random victims in the shortest amount of time while creating the biggest news story. No longer do we kill the teacher we are mad at, or the student that bullied us, but we feel the need to kill all the teacher's students or the whole school that did not stand up against that bully. And we have the firepower to do so.

Our school district was the target of a school shooting back in 1969. It consisted of one student carrying a 20 ga. shotgun walking into the open building, going to the open office and shooting the principal as he sat at his desk. The shooter then walked out of the building. He motive was to kill the principle that had reprimanded him. He never thought that continuing to shoot innocent victims would give him more fame, because it wouldn't have happened. Nor did he have the firepower to do much more, becaiuse he brought the only weapon available to him along with all the ammo from his home. Just a few rounds. That was the norm back then....not so much anymore. That's why school security has to evolve along with the gun culture.

A dead child is a tragedy, but I've yet to hear a parent of a child shot in school wish the child had instead been burned or poisoned to death. The means by which the tragedy is achieved doesn't bear on the tragic character of the act. Focusing on the means as if that were integral to the tragedy is an error.

You say that like the kids were blessed to have been shot to death. Was a time when we didn't have the security, when folks would put poison or tamper with medicine/foods on the shelves. At one time there wasn't access to those things, as most of those things were behind the counter in a small store and handed to us by the store owner. Then came the era of big stores with everything available at an arm's reach. It became easy to tamper with an item and others did not realize it was tampered with. Then came tamper resistant packaging. It evolved along with the marketing. Same goes for the time when young kids would accidentally poison themselves because poisonous products became so accessible. The solution, was child resistant packaging. Again, a solution evolved as did availability. This on top of the fact that folks realized that these deaths were unnecessary. This is where school security is at. As I said before, firebombing or other malicious efforts to harm students can and will be thwarted by the same security measures as keeping shooters out. Killing multiple birds with one stone.

People will differ as to what constitutes reasonable security for a school. I don't like the business with automatically locking doors and swipe cards; I don't see them as a good fit for an academic institution. However, if parents want that sort of thing we will see more of it even if it isn't a reasonable measure.

Why is it you don't like those businesses? Too much inconvenience? The college my youngest son attends has a swipe reader at every entrance to every building. While it does not keep that student attending that school from getting in and doing harm, it does keep others out, or at least impedes them and gives victims time. The use of the card has become second nature. Swipes only allow folks with authorized access to go in specific areas, not the whole school. This limits even those students with some access total access. Again, there is no one best solution to this, but many just so-so solutions. But as of now it's all we have. Better them than nothing, especially when you include liability to those institutions. The same culture that gives us easy access to firearms gives us easy access to lawsuits. Institutions have to show they are making an attempt.

 

[zukiphile]

The gun culture and availability have both evolved over the years. I don't know how old you are, but I'm in my 60s. When I went to High School/College, there were very few if any semi-auto rifles, much less semi-auto handguns in the average gun owner's household. Hi capacity back then was a 5 round mag in a rifle or a 7 rounder in a 1911. Exceptions were .22s. Folks seldom had thousands of rounds of ammo, that's just how it was. They felt lucky to have a box of 20 rifle rounds or a couple 50 round boxes of .22. All this has escalated, along with the culture. Why was it that at one time, all LEOs needed was a 5 shot .38? What changed that they now need a handgun with a 15 round mag, with two extra mags on their belt. Why is there now a Ar-type rifle with 30 round mags in the police car when before all that was needed was a model 97 or a model 12 riot gun? Why is body armor standard wear?

I was born only about 15 years after you.

When I was in school nearly no one was known to have a firearm. When you were in school, lots of "gun guys" were still buying surplus. The older fellows in my office all bought mausers and put "sporter" stocks on them when they were young.

Don't POs always want better equipment? They may not really need to be dressed for a swat raid, and they might be better POs overall without some of that, but it is human nature to want the newest and best. I think some PDs have ARs because they are government surplus, sort of like those old mausers.

Moreover, more modern arms can't be evidence of an especially American gun culture if euro POs also have these things.

Same reason we now need more security at schools. The escalation of our gun culture. Along with the increase in firepower in the already instilled culture, was the increase in social media and news broadcasts, and the new way to become a household name. Sensationalism of the news 24 hours a day became the norm as opposed to the business type way it used to be broadcast, once a day. Used to be when folks killed, they killed someone specific and for a purpose. Now, the trend is to kill the most random victims in the shortest amount of time while creating the biggest news story.

Is it possible that the sensationalized media have given you a false impression of the change you describe? Charles Lee Whitman killed people he couldn't individually identify, and that would have been while you were in school.

Our school district was the target of a school shooting back in 1969. It consisted of one student carrying a 20 ga. shotgun walking into the open building, going to the open office and shooting the principal as he sat at his desk. The shooter then walked out of the building. He motive was to kill the principle that had reprimanded him. He never thought that continuing to shoot innocent victims would give him more fame, because it wouldn't have happened. Nor did he have the firepower to do much more, becaiuse he brought the only weapon available to him along with all the ammo from his home. Just a few rounds. That was the norm back then....not so much anymore. That's why school security has to evolve along with the gun culture.

That doesn't follow.

You had a murder in your school. We didn't have minimal security in schools then because shotguns only held three or five rounds and the body counts would be low. We had modest security then because we started each day not expecting anyone to be killed.

In most places it is the same way now.

A dead child is a tragedy, but I've yet to hear a parent of a child shot in school wish the child had instead been burned or poisoned to death. The means by which the tragedy is achieved doesn't bear on the tragic character of the act. Focusing on the means as if that were integral to the tragedy is an error.

You say that like the kids were blessed to have been shot to death.

No, I write that as if you may have misidentified the reason people mourn the death of a child. The means aren't integral to the resulting sorrow.

People will differ as to what constitutes reasonable security for a school. I don't like the business with automatically locking doors and swipe cards; I don't see them as a good fit for an academic institution. However, if parents want that sort of thing we will see more of it even if it isn't a reasonable measure.

Why is it you don't like those businesses? Too much inconvenience? The college my youngest son attends has a swipe reader at every entrance to every building. While it does not keep that student attending that school from getting in and doing harm, it does keep others out, or at least impedes them and gives victims time. The use of the card has become second nature. Swipes only allow folks with authorized access to go in specific areas, not the whole school. This limits even those students with some access total access. Again, there is no one best solution to this, but many just so-so solutions.

I dislike these things in schools for two reasons:

The first is pedagogic. Teaching people to function within the shadow of an Orwellian administration that determines which room you may enter inures them to an unhealthy acceptance of an unseen authority.

The second is that technological remedies are nearly always less smart than people. May be 20 years ago, federal court houses installed metal detectors. A metal detector is an annoyance to both the person who walks through it and the personnel who have to stop anyone who produces a beep. So the personnel turn the detector down so I can walk through with lot of metal, change, watch, suspenders...., and produce no beep. A couple of times a year they must be inspected, because they get turned up again. That lasts about a week.

 

[buck460XVR]

You had a murder in your school. We didn't have minimal security in schools then because shotguns only held three or five rounds and the body counts would be low. We had modest security then because we started each day not expecting anyone to be killed.

In most places it is the same way now.

Not really. While we still start each day not expecting anyone to be killed, the fact remains today, that if one is killed, there is a great chance many may be killed. That is the primary difference.

You can argue against school security till the cows come home, but the truth is, folks(and many of them are us) are demanding some form of protection for our children. You speak volumes against using different security systems as it is some form of Orwellian society. The adjective Orwellian refers to behaviours much different than just the locking of doors to prevent dangerous people from entering and causing harm. School safety/security is not the "tip of the iceberg" to a Draconian Government, but an iceberg itself and a potential impermeable obstacle for those that wish to do our children harm.

But if you do not wish to see security measures increased and enforced, that must mean you favor more restrictions on firearm ownership, because whether you like it or not, in this country, in the near future, it is going to be one or the other. Something will be done, the public is demanding it. Which of those two evils we face is up to us.

 

[rickyrick]

Much cheaper to take the guns than to beef up security in schools.

They are forever trudging onward toward gun restrictions and eventual confiscation. Politicians in office are saying it; politicians eying offices are saying it.

I never want a school shooting again. It is sad because everyone from all sides are trying to use this incident to their advantage.

All shootings aside, both sides still want the same goals they had before this last incident.

You can no longer rely on constitutional protection. Many places that should be under the umbrella of the constitution have all but made it a vestigial part of history.
If viewed as a greater good, politicians have figured out that they can get laws passed anyway.

So what can be done about school safety? At this point no one has provided a definitive answer that can be implemented now.

The concept that is logically correct is: no guns=no shooting... Makes perfect sense. Can this be implemented? Probably in the future if trends keep going. The public wants it, the politicians want it.

 

[zukiphile]

You had a murder in your school. We didn't have minimal security in schools then because shotguns only held three or five rounds and the body counts would be low. We had modest security then because we started each day not expecting anyone to be killed.

In most places it is the same way now.

Not really. While we still start each day not expecting anyone to be killed, the fact remains today, that if one is killed, there is a great chance many may be killed. That is the primary difference.

Is it? Or is that an illusion sustained by the "sensationalized media" you noted?

You can argue against school security till the cows come home, but the truth is, folks(and many of them are us) are demanding some form of protection for our children. You speak volumes against using different security systems as it is some form of Orwellian society.

No, I objected to inuring students to submission to an unseen authority as an unhealthy habit. That should not suggest that a swipe card itself creates an Orwellian society.

But if you do not wish to see security measures increased and enforced, that must mean you favor more restrictions on firearm ownership, because whether you like it or not, in this country, in the near future, it is going to be one or the other. Something will be done, the public is demanding it. Which of those two evils we face is up to us.

That doesn't follow.

Disliking a fortification and credentials for entry model of security (metaphorically a HAL9000 demanding "Papieren Bitte!!" throughout the day) is not the sole alternative to greater firearms restriction. Allowing staff to be armed seems to have merit.

If we are worried that some aspect of the culture may be playing a role in the high profile stories, we might ask whether a culture that focuses on dangerous instruments and disarms everyone in a given area has served us well.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The gun culture and availability have both evolved over the years.

Just as an aside. As a little boy growing up in Brooklyn, NY - the local Macy's (yes, the department store in the malls) sold WWII surplus rifles. Used to go look at them.

Wasn't that much gun crime in NYC then. The rise in gun crime is correlated with poverty and the drug wars. Middle class and upper SES gun crime rates have been flat for a long time.

 

[zukiphile]

Just as an aside. As a little boy growing up in Brooklyn, NY - the local Macy's (yes, the department store in the malls) sold WWII surplus rifles. Used to go look at them.

The oldest fellow in my office says he mail ordered a german p-38. He thought he had been swindled out of his $30 until he took it to "the dump" to shoot rats and it functioned well.

 

[gbclarkson]

HIPAA laws need a re-examination. The Virginia Tech shooter was severely mentally ill and dangerous but privacy rights prevented the exchange of information about his condition and potential for mass violence. In a logical world, the victims' right to not be shot in a public school supersede the murderer's right to keep his felonious temptations secreted away in a file cabinet.

 

[leadcounsel]

I don't think the school needs to look like supermax prison.

A few armed guards patrolling and keeping an eye out for the unusual (e.g. a guy walking up with a shotgun and battle gear) would do the trick. It is more of a deterrent effect than a standoff.

You have to understand the psychology of these people - they crave the evil ability to kill defenseless people. They gravitate to soft targets. Make a school a mildly harder target with some armed security. This would resolve most of the problem.

When was the last time a police station, gun shop, or similar armed location was successfully attacked and lots of people executed? I'd submit almost never.

 

[Andy Blozinski]

Any a youse guys making statements that it was less dangerous back when there weren't as many rounds in the gun in the old days might want to take notice that the DC shooter killed 12 people and he only brought a single 12 gauge with a 5 shot tube capacity.

There are lots of complicated fixes for so many underlying issues that are contributing. The quickest and easiest way to improve the situation would be to make schools less inviting targets. More ways than one to do this.

 

[buck460XVR]

Just as an aside. As a little boy growing up in Brooklyn, NY - the local Macy's (yes, the department store in the malls) sold WWII surplus rifles. Used to go look at them.

Same here. Even bought one, a M1917. It became my go to deer rifle. Still use it today the few times I hunt with a rifle. It's a bolt action with a internal mag and holds a total of five rounds. They had M1 carbines too, with 10 round detachable mags. My dad carried one in the war and would not sign for one for me. He disliked them so, when I was old enough, I still stayed away from them.

My point is, as guns have evolved, so has the culture around them. It's evolved over centuries, and is not going to be easily fixed/changed with one sweep of a pen or one more security gate. But, in the near future,it's going to be another sweep of the pen or another security gate. Pick your fancy.

There are lots of complicated fixes for so many underlying issues that are contributing.

^^^Exactly. Folks have listed many contributing issues here, there is no one major theme, but many small ones intertwined. Like it or not, schools are adding more security. If you don't believe it, go to a school and try to just walk in. Go to a school board meeting and ask what measures they have already taken and what their 5 year plan is. You will probably be surprised.

 

[9x18_Walther]

The media is having a field day with the NAU "school shooting".

One individual shot four people (killing one). Occurred in a remote parking lot at the NAU campus near a fraternity at 1 AM in the morning. Alcohol and/or drugs is likely involved.

"School shooting" is the last thing I would describe this incident as.

Ironically someone died from a hit and run in Phoenix today. Their life seems to hold no weight relatively.

How sad for all. If you are in a parking lot at 1 AM under the influence - you are up to no good...

 

[rickyrick]

I've seen this before, standard after hours and regular delinquent bafoonery and hooliganism is going to get airtime as a campus shooting.

In the past after the active shooter events; your standard crime near a campus gets thrown into the media agenda. Crime around colleges is a pretty regular event.

The AZ shooting started at a nearby apartment and moved to the campus parking lot.
A local radio news person has a daughter that attends that school.

 

[9x18_Walther]

Crime around colleges is a pretty regular event.

Where I just graduated from, I tell you the surrounding area is as sketchy as it gets. I occasionally view state-wide crime maps and the entire area is chock solid or robberies, thefts, and assaults both physical and sexual.

 

[44 AMP]

Several recent posts have mentioned the "gun culture" in the US.

It seems to be another of the terms that mean one thing to one group, and something else to another.

I would say there are at least two different "gun cultures". One is the one most TFL members recognize, the enjoyment and appreciation of firearms for their sporting, and recreational uses, the mechanical designs, and their utility in dire circumstances, etc.

The other is also a "gun culture" but it is NOT the same. IT is the fascination or even obsession with guns as a means to do murder and mayhem.

This is the only one gun control bigots recognize. They cannot conceive of guns being anything else.

To them, anyone who shows any interest in guns must be one of the obsessed fanatics, to actually enjoy these "instruments of death".

The fact that there actually ARE some people who fit that category simply convinces them that they must be right.

The fact that these people are a miniscule fragment of humanity and are considered defective by the rest of us does not matter to them, either. TO them, we are all the same, potential time bombs who have just not "gone off" yet.