States legalizing pot vs a SD shoot scenario

So,without making any value judgement on marijuana itself(frankly,because my opinion just does not matter)

These posts have determined:

That a medical marijuana prescription card documents you as (federally) unlawful user of a controlled substance.That is part of you medical records,which will soon be in a Federal database.

If you sign and swear,at the same time,that you are not an unlawful user on your 4473 form,you have provided documentation you are guilty of a felony(lying on the 4473)

If you look at similar topic in legal and civil rights,you will see text of the law as written that clearly states a bad drug test is evidence you made a false statement on your 4473.

Per Federal law,if you are in possesion of a firearm and a controlled substance at the same time,it is another felony.I do not know how that works out with being in posession of a firearm while drug testing positive,but it would not surprise me if it is unlawful.

OK,so if you fill out your 4473,swear you do not use,are involved in a SD shoot,you can already be charged with a felony for a false statement on your 4473 if you drug test positive.
That is pretty good evidence you lie in a sworn statement.How is that for your credibility on the stand?Suppose a prosecutor might exploit that?

Now,you have a gun,you fail a drug test,you are involved in a shooting,what are the odds there will be a search warrant for controlled substances at your residence?AAh,still a federal violation to have guns and drugs,another felony charge...How is your self defense program working out?
 
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My bottom line is this - anyone who is going to have and shoot guns should keep all illegal drugs out of their lives - no exceptions (even pot and "medically prescribed" pot), and abstain from alcohol and any legal drugs that can possibly impair your reflexes or judgment, whenever that person is going have a gun on his person or be around guns, like hunting and shooting at the range.

That's just the rule that I live by and expect others to live by - right or wrong makes no difference to me.
 
Doctor said my statin cholesterol meds could cause light headedness or fuzziness. He said it's a known side -effect. I think we should test for statins, too. Where I come from, a drug influenced shooting is a drug influenced shooting!
 
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It seems obvious to me, that real time tests that can gauge the approximate time of consumption are the only logical solution. Just determining that someone used marijuana(illegal, or not) in the last 30 days or so, doesn't pass the smell test when it comes to determining impairment at the time of a recent event.

Unlike others in this thread, I don't believe the Federal Justice Department will spend the time and funds to go after individual users, especially in states that have decriminalized it. President Obama has said as much. He said that the law is the law though and those who operate on a large scale will still be prosecuted. So we may see some fireworks on that front, if and when big growers/distributors in Colorado, or Oregon are prosecuted.
 
The last posts by Skans and Gott are something I agree with and live by myself. Prescription drugs can reak havoc with judgement for sure. It is best that one keep oneself as pure as possible. It was indeed a lively discussion of the hypotheticals.

One more bent on the hypothetical side that HiBC brings up about the 4473 & illegal drugs (I think the form only lists marijuana, I haven't filled out a 4473 in a long time so I do not recall), what if at the time a person fills out the 4473 they do not use cannabis; it's just not part of their life and then say some years later they get hurt real bad or get MS or something and their Dr. prescribes medical MJ and they use it then? No concurrent use of guns and mj, they still have the guns, but may never shoot them again. Any lawyers on the forum care to comment?
 
nate45 said:
...I don't believe the Federal Justice Department will spend the time and funds to go after individual users, especially in states that have decriminalized it. President Obama has said as much...
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I believe that is the current federal policy with regard to the federally unlawful, individual use of marijuana. But I see no reason to believe that policy extends to the weapons violations -- being a prohibited person in possession of a gun and/or making a false statement on a 4473.

Heavy Metal 1 said:
...Dr. prescribes medical MJ and they use it then? No concurrent use of guns and mj, they still have the guns, but may never shoot them again. Any lawyers on the forum care to comment?
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If someone in that position retains possession of his guns, he is in violation of 18 USC 922(g)(3) by possessing a gun while being an unlawful user of a controlled substance.

First, under the Controlled Substances Act, marijuana is a Schedule I controlled substance. That means that under federal law it may not be lawfully used or prescribed. So anyone using marijuana is an unlawful user of a controlled substance.

Second, here's how the applicable federal regulation defines "unlawful user" (27 CFR 478.11):
Unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance. A person who uses a controlled substance and has lost the power of self-control with reference to the use of controlled substance; and any person who is a current user of a controlled substance in a manner other than as prescribed by a licensed physician. Such use is not limited to the use of drugs on a particular day, or within a matter of days or weeks before, but rather that the unlawful use has occurred recently enough to indicate that the individual is actively engaged in such conduct. A person may be an unlawful current user of a controlled substance even though the substance is not being used at the precise time the person seeks to acquire a firearm or receives or possesses a firearm. An inference of current use may be drawn from evidence of a recent use or possession of a controlled substance or a pattern of use or possession that reasonably covers the present time, e.g., a conviction for use or possession of a controlled substance within the past year; multiple arrests for such offenses within the past 5 years if the most recent arrest occurred within the past year; or persons found through a drug test to use a controlled substance unlawfully, provided that the test was administered within the past year....
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Third, under 18 USC 922(g)(3):
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—

....

(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));

...

to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
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then say some years later they get hurt real bad or get MS or something and their Dr. prescribes medical MJ and they use it then? No concurrent use of guns and mj, they still have the guns, but may never shoot them again. Any lawyers on the forum care to comment?
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My comment is you sound like you're trying to rationalize smoking dope and carrying concealed.

Re your question, the 4473 questions are present tense. "Are you buying.." etc. What, years later you want to go back to the dealer's store and say, "I've got to change one of my answers. I recently started smoking dope."

Seriously, in a self-defense scenario things get chaotic and screwed up in a hurry. Maybe the shooter acted in self-defense. Maybe the DA isn't going to file charges. But maybe the perp's family knows the shooter smokes dope and decides to file a suit. It all comes down to who has the best lawyer.

It's not worth the risk. People say alcohol is so much worse than dope. I don't know one way or the other. But my understanding is the human body metabolizes alcohol much faster than dope. Pot stays in the system for what, a month? If I were on a jury and the defendant had dope in his system and maybe the case was not absolutely clear cut, etc.
 
My bottom line is this - anyone who is going to have and shoot guns should keep all illegal drugs out of their lives - no exceptions (even pot and "medically prescribed" pot), and abstain from alcohol and any legal drugs that can possibly impair your reflexes or judgment, whenever that person is going have a gun on his person or be around guns, like hunting and shooting at the range.

That's just the rule that I live by and expect others to live by - right or wrong makes no difference to me.
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While your expectations are honorable, I can assure they are not honored. Would you care to guess how many LEO's are out there doing their job everyday that are prescribed some form of mind altering drug... I happen to personally know more then just a few. Some on pain killers, some downers and yet still others on uppers.
And yes some prescribed by the dept. shrink. ;)

Hell, far as that goes, when one of our bigger local cities instilled an ordnance of 'no smoking in city vehicles', almost half the police dept. was on Welbutrin(sp) prescribed by their Drs. to help them quit smoking. Welbutrin is mind altering and was developed as an anti depressant to be prescribed by physicians for depression but has been also known to help people quit smoking.
 
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To Foghorn, let me be clear: I am not trying to rationalize anything. I do not use marijuana. Heck I'll pee in a jar for you to test:p I've got enough with my allergies without adding something else for my body to deal with. My question is posed as a hypothetical regarding timelines of 4437 application and subsequent use of drugs again by the hypothetical person. I feel Frank Ettin has cleared that up by his description.

At one phase in my career I worked on a Alcohol and Other Drug unit. With that experience I have come to know about chemicals affecting human beings somewhat moreso than the average Joe. I was absolutley amazed by the number of alcoholic cops we treated. That was spooky because they are more likely to get into a situation where they had to use a gun than the rest of us.
 
I recall a case in my town where 4 people confronted one person in a park.The lone person ran.He was caught,knocked down,and was taking a beating.He pulled out his folding Buck knife and killed one of them.He was sentenced to five years,in the words of the DA"He brought a knife to a fist fight"

How does Eric Holder,our AG,feel about guns?Do you think he would pursue a SD shooting with "fairness" in mind?

Think about a certain high profile shoot where an unarmed man was beating an armed man on the ground.I know the unarmed guy who died had MJ in his tox report because the press made a big deal of it.

To the folks who think this is about coming down on the pot smoker,no.I'm the OP.I know a lot of young people.A lot of them smoke pot.Occasionally,they offer to share.I politely decline,explaining it would compromize my Second Ammendment Rights,and I have made a choice.

A large percentage of younger folks use pot to some degree.I hate to see those folks throw the Second Ammendment away.Over time,that weakens the 2nd.

I do not trust the soft touch on prosecution.Discretionary enforcement is a trap.I smell rat.Medpot cards,or go to the Recreational Pot Store,show driver's liscence,a barcode and Visa transaction.A whole lot of data mining quietly goes on every day.

Right now,Biden and Holder will be on a commission to reduce gun violence...could be,over time,just like the folks with a domestic violence history,or even deadbeat dads,you go for a background check and it will come back"This person made 9 MJ transactions last year.Denied"This person has a Medpot card denied.Apply for a hunting liscence,denied...

Maybe,it won't happen...you can trust politicians with your freedom,unless you want a 24 oz Coke in NYC

I don't know.It is your 2nd Ammendment right.Treat it how you want to,but if mixing controlled substances and firearms bites you,please do not whine.
 
It seems obvious to me, that real time tests that can gauge the approximate time of consumption are the only logical solution.
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Don't rely on this. I do not think I believe this science. Someone who smokes a lot might have much more in their system(higher tolerance). Even if it has been days, that doesn't mean the test will show this. That is only one example of how it can end bad for you. I can think of others off the top of my head right off the bat which would show a distrust in relying on a prosecutor's or arresting officer's so-called test.
 
I don't really have a horse in the race, but I would imagine, that with states starting to decriminalize/legalize marijuana use it's only a matter of time until things wind up at SCOTUS and the federal law gets overturned.

In the mean time if you've had a rough week and need to relax, but don't want to compromise your 2nd amendment rights, stick to booze and/or whatever pills your doctor prescribes. It might be hypocritical, but it's the way things are.

Also, the form says "an unlawful user of...", so if you live in a state where it's legal, or use it medically, couldn't make an argument that you're not using it illegally? Or does the federal law supersede the state law?
 
Or does the federal law supersede the state law?
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Yes, Fed. law does supersede State law.

There are currently 18 States plus DC in which med. mj is legal by State law but still illegal per Fed. law.
See list here:
http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000881

IMO, something being made State legal but still against Fed. law does nothing but set the grounds for 'bad mojo waiting to happen'....and if I don't miss my guess, there will be some bad things happen(Feds. busting State legal med. mj. institutes, etc.) out of the whole med. mj State versus Fed. law issue.

As things stand now, it's just bound to happen.

Guess it would make to much sense to either completely legalize it per State and Fed. law same as alcohol or make it totally illegal before the 'bad mojo' hits.
But that's our 'gubment' for ya.
 
Regardless of what the State law is concerning marijuana, if you are a user you are prohibited federally from possessing firearms. Get caught with a firearm and medical marijuana card and go to prison as prohibited possessor.
 
Okay another hypothetical. Say that the defendant can prove without a doubt that at the time of purchasing/filling out his 4473, he had never engaged in a federally controlled substance, yet since then he engaged in SD homicide and had smoked weed 2 weeks prior?

For instance a 50 year old man in Colorado bought an 870 in the 80s, yet since it was legalized in his state he tried it for the first time. Then a couple weeks later an intruder threatens his life and he reacts?

This scenario engages me moreso, because the contradictory laws hurt older people.
 
If you are an illegal user of drugs as defined by federal law you are prohibited from possessing firearms/ammo period. Not being a drug user when you fill out the 4473 does not matter if you later become a user. At the time you become an illegal drug user you become a prohibited possessor. If you were a drug user and lied on the 4473 and it could be proven, that is a separate charge. Prohibited possessor status is all encompassing and is not limited to purchase. If you are a drug user and in a position to touch a firearm you may go to prison. Of course there is an argument as to how much drug use makes you a "user". One time use, probably not. Admitted daily use, defiantly.
 
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Dr Big Bird PhD said:
...Say that the defendant can prove without a doubt that at the time of purchasing/filling out his 4473, he had never engaged in a federally controlled substance, yet since then he engaged in SD homicide and had smoked weed 2 weeks prior?...
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It may be that someone is not an unlawful user of a controlled substance when he buys a gun. At some later date, if he becomes an unlawful user of a controlled substance his continued possession of a gun, even if originally lawfully acquired, would be a crime under federal law. Whether someone is an unlawful user of a controlled substance depends on the exact circumstances and could finally be a question for a judge or jury.
 
"Get caught with a firearm and medical marijuana card and go to prison as prohibited possessor."

Not hardly. Having a pot card does not in any way mean you are a current or past user of marijuana. We all probably know folks w/ driver's licenses who do not drive. I can own an entire shelf of books, but it doesn't mean I have read them, will ever read them or even know how to read!
 
Heavy Metal 1 said:
...Having a pot card does not in any way mean you are a current or past user of marijuana...
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Perhaps. But if you have a medical marijuana card and a gun, the possession of the card will almost certainly be probable cause to get a warrant to search for evidence of current of recent use.
 
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