Standard Load .38 Special versus Heavy Clothing

Plain old ball ammo for hard to penetrate clothing. Otherwise, rodger on the BB 150 grain wadcutters. And no doubt Hornady Critical Defense has gained new ground in this respect, and may have taken the lead.
 
I liked using semi-jacketed soft point ammo when I was shooting .357 and .38 specials. The penetration was quite good and they did some expansion as well. The 158 grain soft point in .357 Mag was my preferred handgun round for deer hunting. The round did penetrate quite well.
 
Glenn Dee: said:
Does anyone here actually think that heavy winter clothing will stop a .38spl bullet of any kind?
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Glenn,

It's pretty unlikely in any realistic scenario, but I suppose if you really piled on such clothing and used a real "powder puff" load it might. The amount of clothing necessary to stop a bullet reliably would probably inhibit greatly the movement of anyone wearing such a large amount and is hardly a practical arrangement. Reminds of those big bulky "snow suits" that my Mom used to wrap me up in every winter. Coulda dropped me off on Pluto and I'd have stayed warm for a year. :D

The tensile strength of the fabrics (nowhere near that of the Aramids used to make bullet resistant soft armor) used in cold weather outerwear and regular clothing is just not enough to stop a bullet unless some really strange conditions are created. Expanding designs, like JHPs, are unlikely to expand in these fabrics because they don't produce the hydraulic forces necessary to drive expansion so even a JHP is more than likely gonna act like a FMJRN and drive straight through with little problem.
 
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Another vote for 158gr LSWC. It should do nicely even if the bad guy is seeking cover behind a couch or car door. I shot a hand load through a 2x4 and it came out the other end looking just fine.

I've been hearing bad things about Hornady Critical Defense when it hits barriers. I guess they have a new line now that's supposed to be better.
 
Hhmmm....Well, folks are speculating about,"...what is the issue here...?" I think the issue here is what I see in S000 many threads. Folks are petrified with the thought of OVERPENETRATION. JHP passes through heavy winter clothing, hollowpoint gets clogged, bullet doesn't expand, passes through the mark like a FMJ and inflicts collateral damage. The issue here isn't about lack of penetration, it's an obsessive fear of overpentetration.--Patrice
 
The Hornady Critical Defense standard veocity load seems to b a good bet. It's what I carry in my light weight .38's.
 
I wonder what on earth the cops in New York, Chicago and other
cold winter climates did back in the 50's and 60's when they carried
.38 specials as duty weapons. This whole winter clothing thing is
really a non-issue. Hang up your heaviest flannel shirt and then shoot
it with a .38spl 158gr jhp. You will have your answer in short order.
 
Short answer here is that head shots are incredibly hard to pull off.
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Anyone that disagrees with this statement should give IDPA a try. On the clock I have myself and seen others miss head shots from 4 yards on up. Ain't that the reason they say we should train for COM hits???
 
Don P, per Mas Ayoob and Marty Hayes, COM should be interpreted as "Center of available mass.

IE, it's a good idea to practice head shots, because they BG might have cover... or body armor... or one of your loved ones as a shield.

But no, head shots are not easy, and if the BG is exposed, the thoracic triangle is a much easier area to hit.
 
Short answer here is that head shots are incredibly hard to pull off.
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Especially with a snub in DA

it's a good idea to practice head shots, because they BG might have cover... or body armor... or one of your loved ones as a shield.
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Dont think it's a good idea to shoot inches away from your loved ones own head to try to hit the bad guys head. You typically see that in movies and in a real life situation your chances are just as great to hit the bad guy as you are your loved one. As Don P said he has seein shooters in IDPA matches miss head shots from 4 yards away, these guys and gals practice headshots much more than the average shooter.
 
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Yes, but a store clerk recently kneecapped a thief who had picked up and was running away with her child.

And I have taught my wife, if grabbed, to just let her knees go limp and drop straight down, in such a situation.

If she is alone, other weight dropping tactics are available.
 
Some of us have DAO snubs. You might be surprised what practice can do.
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My everyday carry is a DAO snub and I live fire practice with it 3 or 4 times a month and dry fire everyday. With enough practice and discipline you can shoot them accurately but it does not change that they are some of the hardest handguns to shoot. I am not taking my chances with head shots in a high stress situation, especially when I am limited to 5 shots.
 
So what is your plan if the torso is not available? Man, I wish I could dictate the disposition of a potential aggressor...

Edit: please note, my initial argument was that COM may well come whatever the highest percentage shot available will be. This might be the head, the pelvis or even the gun arm.

Take the high percentage shot, but don't expect that your preferred target area will be open. Train for worst case.
 
So what is your plan if the torso is not available? Man, I wish I could dictate the disposition of a potential aggressor...
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If in the extremely rare event that god forbid I ever have to go up against someone with body armor on, then yea ill go for head shots. In a more probable real life situation I will aim for center mass everytime.
 
The rare event of somebody using a car or wall corner or heavy furniture as cover?

Yep... Pretty rare...
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If it comes down to that I am not going to shoot it out with my 5 shot snub and one reload sitting in my pocket. My number one priority in that case is to flee the scene to safety and find a good covering position. If they choose to pursue me they will have to leave cover thus exposing themselves leaving me an open shot.
 
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