Standard Load .38 Special versus Heavy Clothing

S

Southern Shooter

New member
If a person is limited to standard load .38 Special ammunition due to limitations of the gun or physical conditions...using a 2" to 3" barreled revolver...and, because it is winter, is concerned about getting through heavy clothing and still expanding...

Which ammunition would you use...and, why????

Please keep the discussion within the boundaries set above.

Thanks
 
I would use 148 grain wadcutters and not worry about expansion (a wadcutter will do the maximum damage for a non-expanding load.) They penetrate like crazy, and are controllable for your follow-up shot.
 
Well, you've got the Buffalo Bore standard pressure offerings, the 148 grain full wadcutter might work, the 110 grain Barnes loaded to standard pressure would probably perform well.
 
How about you put some heavy winter clothing on your target or a bale of hay and shoot it with your pistol/revolver and your chosen ammo and see.

I find my LSWC 150 grn bullet dont have any problem with heavy winter clothing out of my 642.

I'm not a big fan of changing ammo when I change socks.
 
I would use 148 grain wadcutters and not worry about expansion (a wadcutter will do the maximum damage for a non-expanding load.) They penetrate like crazy, and are controllable for your follow-up shot.
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Any concerns about wadcutters being a relatively low velocity round? They might be challenged to make 600 fps out of a snubby.
 
If it's enough of a life and death situation to be shooting at someone, what's wrong with aiming for the head?
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Short answer here is that head shots are incredibly hard to pull off.
 
At worst, heavy clothing is going to make a JHP clog up and act like FMJ, so reduced penetration from heavy clothing isn't really a concern. Unfortunately, most of the standard pressure HP loadings available are older ones that suffer from either unreliable expansion, lackluster penetration, or both.

Buffalo Bore makes a few excellent standard pressure loadings, but while they'd be just the ticket for someone limited by an older gun, their ballistics and corresponding recoil may be a bit much for someone with a physical ailment that makes them recoil sensitive. Federal's 125gr NyClad is better than most standard pressure HP's and does reportedly have very mild recoil, but it still doesn't penetrate quite as much as I'd prefer (most tests I've seen show 8-10" in ballistic gelatin). For a recoil sensitive shooter, Hornady's 110gr standard pressure Critical Defense would probably be my loading of choice as it has mild recoil, reliable expansion, is unaffected by heavy clothing, and displays some of the best penetration in a standard pressure HP next to Buffalo Bore. Of course, if all else fails a good old fashioned 148gr HBWC is certainly better than harsh language as it will give you mild recoil, plenty of penetration, and possibly even some moderate expansion due to the very soft lead used.

Now, if you can use +P ammunition, there are many excellent choices available such as Speer 135gr Short Barrel Gold Dot, Cor-Bon 110gr DPX, and Remington 158gr LSWCHP "FBI Load".
 
Honestly, I can't wrap my head around the concern with bullet penetration through winter clothing. I don't know where it started, and don't understand why. This is not an attack on the orig. poster, just a statement about the entire idea, which has been around for a long time. I am unaware of any commercial load that is not suitable for penetrating a thick coat and layered clothing while maintaining adequate ballistics to incapacitate.

Understanding the effects of bullets - any bullets - on the body will clear these topics up quick, fast, and in a hurry. With low velocity (pistol) rounds, you are only counting on the damage done by the primary wound track. Basically, any round in this category, whether it expands or not, will incapacitate reliably only if it strikes an organ vital enough to disrupt normal bodily function (cervical spine, head, heart, IVC, aorta, etc.). With this in mind, any regular .38 SPL load will do the job out of a snub revolver, provided it can penetrate enough tissue. Personally, I would look for the highest penetration and disregard expansion characteristics. Contrary to popular belief on gun forums, overpenetration is MUCH better than underpenetration with full expansion, because energy dump in not effective at the velocity of pistol rounds. A common result of E dump in the body is hematoma, due to disruption of small capillaries and fatty tissue. This is far from an incapacitating effect, especially when chemicals like adrenaline are flowing through your body, making it more resilient to injury and pain.

The only time I can see it worth worrying about ammunition performance is with hard barrier penetration, such as wood, thin metal, and auto glass. These barriers can defeat or deflect some rounds easily, but not others. Because we spend a lot of time in our vehicles, and road rage attacks are probably more common than random robberies, I consider the auto glass and door penetration characteristics of a round, which is why I like Speer Gold Dots. I've seen incidents of people shooting through their own windshields and side windows to fight off attackers/carjackers that approach them.

In short, I would not be concerned carrying anything that can penetrate decently, because it will still do that through layers of clothing. I'm sorry for the long and overly-detailed response, but the topic of which load is best is honestly overblown by gun enthusiasts who really have never had any experience with the aftermath of a shooting. Save some $$ and just keep the rounds you normally use.
 
Additional info about Wadcutters

Something that I forgot to mention in my previous post is that a WC or SWC bullet is the best type if you're limited to non-expanding. The reason is that a round nose bullet often pushes and stretches tissue out of the way and thus the permanent crush cavity with these types of bullets is often substantially smaller than the actual diameter of the bullet. A WC or SWC, however, has sharper shoulders which are much more likely to crush and/or lacerate tissue as the bullet penetrates thereby causing a larger diameter wound track than a RN bullet of the same diameter.
 
if your worried about getting through clothing,..

1. get a box of 170-190 grain hard cast loads from buffalo bore. no way those would fail to go through winter clothing, or through a stud wall.

2. perhaps a bigger gun is in order? no one has ever suggested hardcast semi wadcutters from a 44 special, 44-40, 45 colt have failed to penetrate.
 
If a person is limited to standard load .38 Special ammunition due to limitations of the gun or physical conditions...using a 2" to 3" barreled revolver...and, because it is winter, is concerned about getting through heavy clothing and still expanding...

Which ammunition would you use...and, why????

Please keep the discussion within the boundaries set above.

Thanks
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You didn't mention +Ps or not. Is that the guns physical condition, no +Ps?

"Soft lead"!

First thing I thought about was Wadcutter's.

In my model S&W 37 I use 158g SJHP standard, I sleep like a baby with them in my gun. They may not expaned, but they do distort.

Can't have your cake and eat it to.
 
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Southern Shooter,

Given the constraints of your argument, I think that I'd go with the .38 Spl. 148 grain Wadcutter @ 710 feet per second and not worry about expansion. As far as defeating "heavy clothing", the model presented in the following DoD paper

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005garm/tuesday/hudgins.pdf

suggests that the 148 gr. WC should be able to punch through heavy clothing (I've used a "garment weight" of 32 ounces per square foot for this example) with a velocity loss of about 53 fps, exiting the heavy clothing at a speed of 657 fps. At that velocity, the 148 gr WC ought to give you about 16 inches of penetration in soft tissue.
 
If I was stuck with standard pressure I would probably use the Buffalo Bore 125gr Speer Low Velocity HP or 158gr LSWC-HC.

The 158gr averages over 14" in gel and fragments just enough to add secondary wound tracks. It still maintains a core of .39 inches. So there is even a bit of expansion.
 
I am unaware of any commercial load that is not suitable for penetrating a thick coat and layered clothing while maintaining adequate ballistics to incapacitate.
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+1.

I'd be more concerned about shot placement over expansion. However, a good 158gr wadcutter would be a good choice if you are concerned about it.

Personally, I'll stick with my normal summer / winter carry Speer Gold Dots HPs.
 
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