Spring tension saving (Taurus PT92/Beretta92): hammer on half cock safety notch or all way down?

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@TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Of course parts break, to think they never will is folly
further more the recoil spring should be ocassionally changed.. even if it does not break (actually never seen one break) because they loose strength and allow the slide to batter the frame, you're so worried about things that don't matter THATS! one thing you should be worried about, Change it out every few 1000 rounds.. 5k at most.

The trigger spring break, does not matter Taurus or Beretta, most design pro's and con's are shared between them and any other 92 pattern clone(ish) gun.

They don't break often, but it does happen.
Hammer springs typically don't break but can become weak and cause light strikes, again not usually a problem... but it can and will happen eventually.

This is like changing the oil in your car.. expect some maintenance, it ain't expensive nor hard to do and it's not very often either.

As far as carry condition first off the half cock is a throw back before the firing pin block, originally neither the beretta or taurus had blocks, I don't recall exactly when they added them but both companies did it sometime in the early to mid 80's.
The half cock notch was to catch the hammer if you slipped while cocking.
Before the firing pin block the gun would have discharged in such a situation.

The beretta fully decocks while the firing pin plunger rotates away.. on the Taurus the newer decocker models decock aprox where half cock is but not quite.
They do this because the firing pin does NOT rotate away on the Taurus and a full drop would be a test of the firing pin block.. probably not a good thing.

I would say the natural way for the Taurus to be carried is Con1, Cocked and Locked like a 1911.

I use to carry like this but I found the safety getting bumped off a lot and unlike a 1911 there is no back strap safety.

So if we're using the Jeff Cooper system (which I think originally had SA 1911 in mind) I carry mine In Con2, chambered, decocked, safety off.
DA pull on the 92's is well enough that you don't really need a safety.

I do not recommend carrying Con3 with the chamber empty there is no need to with either brands version of the gun you could probably toss them out a 2nd story window and not have them go off.


How about citing that research for us? Otherwise some of us will say that claim is the firearms equivalent of fake news: it sounds right, but there's nothing to back it up when you look for the details. If you can offer research that shows that cycling (and not compression) kills springs, you'll have added to our base of knowledge.
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Ok here we go I knew I should not have even brought it up.
Well I use to be in the "they take a set" camp but the matter was settled year ago for me.. where? I don't know I don't keep references on tap for everything I've learned I believe I learned of it over on the Beretta board but I could be wrong.. call it fake, Im a liar, what ever I don't get paid to convince you.
Just trying to put this poor guys mind at ease.

A number of engineers who participate here, (including a Metallurgist or two) have told us that the long, deep compression of a spring (which can happen when a gun is cycled) is where the damage and wear CAN occur. And if you leave the spring DEEPLY COMPRESSED, the longer it stays that way the greater is the likelihood of damage. But only if the compression pushes the spring to or past the spring's design (elastic) limits.
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Well I suppose that's true enough a spring has it's limits, usually it's stretching not over compressing we have to worry about but yes we all know what happens if you take a warn out spring and stretch it.

If you have a full-size 17-round mag and never load it past 10 rounds, that mag spring may outlast both the gun and the shooter, regardless of how many times it is cycled. The spring just won't be pushed anywhere near its design limit. But if that mag is left loaded with 17 rounds for a year or two, you might see a dramatic reduction in spring strength - and in a few cases, the may won't even allow the gun function when used.
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Damn.. that's pretty bad.. omgz!
I been using the same 2 mec-gar 18 round mags in my 92 pattern guns (these are my carry mags) and are never not loaded and let me tell you the 18th round is still a pita to get in.

It all depends on the spring's design and how the spring is used.

JohnKSa, a Firing Line staff member and also an engineer, has conducted his own research. I think he would disagree with your claim about cycling. Here's a link to some of his work posted on this forum, and his related comments:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...56#post6005156

JohnKSa also knows a bit about spring powered air guns, and he has posted links to studies done by experts familiar with those types of springs.

Cycling isn't necessarily a spring killer. Most tappet springs in motor engines will cycle many, many millions of times over their life and never fail -- but they were designed so that they can't be over compressed. Most gun springs are like that, too, but there are exceptions -- cited above.
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Well in his test he IS cycling the spring to get his readings.. just saying.
They should not wear that fast from that few cycles though I'd be the first to admit.

A spring is made to be flexible, does not mean they will never break though.
I do agree the less of their range they're asked for the better, This goes back to cycling stress.

Think of it like this a 1911 could very well spend it's entire life in the cocked position, it is it's natural state.. under normal use unless you decock it or have a dud round a 1911 should always be cocked.

how often do you hear about weak hammer springs on 1911's from sitting?

The only time you really have to worry about a spring "taking a set" is if it's gotten very hot and lost it's heat treatment (which is what give it it's flex).
A good rule of thumb is a gun that's been in a fire if the spring are still good usually (I said USUALLY) the rest of the gun has maintained it's heat treatment, Springs usually (again I say USUALLY) the first to go from heat damage.
 
I have put over the recoil spring and guide rod an rubber O-Ring as a shock buffer.

Works fantastically well.

BTW, does anyone know another Company besides Taurus who clones the Beretta 92 design?

The half cock notch was to catch the hammer if you slipped while cocking.
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This is a nice Thing since I cock the PT 92 as a Revolver. Nice usefull half cock notch.
 
If its a coil spring good luck breaking one. If you are really all that worried just buy a few spares to have on hand.

And I remember reading that 50 years after WW2 someone found a full auto German machine gun hidden in a wall that had been fully loaded for 50 years. They shot it and it worked just like a new gun. And I bet spring design has only gotten better since WW2.
 
Direct 100% copies? none that I know of.
Usually when they rip the design off they change a few things.
The list is pretty long in that regard.

The one's made in Turkey by MEKE..
Originally imported by ATI, they're currently being sold under Chiappa Arms as the m9.
Girsan claims to make them but I suspect MEKE is still making them.
They also sell a 22lr verison which I know nothing about.

Other than the locking block and corresponding cuts in the slide they're extremely close copies of the 92F

There was a few Egyptian clones made by Helwan, I have zero experience with them, but the 920 looks like a clone of the 92S

South Africa, Vector sp1 and z88 (again no experience)

I hear there are unauthorized clones being made for local use in Pakistan but can't confirm.

List is probably a lot longer than that just the ones I can think of.

The Taurus to be honest I would not even call a clone anymore.
Originally early Taurus was identical to the (at the time) Beretta models.
But this is way back to the original design.. both guns have gone thru multiple evolutions, Part compatibility is not even 100% thru their own respective lines.
They both added firing pin blocks and moved the magazine catch on their own and in non compatible ways.
Big pita is because of that mags will not swap between them (except for old heal release models) without modification.

Biggest thing that pops out at people is the frame safety, which is how the original 92 was designed.. so in a sense the Taurus is actually closer to the original design then current production (non limited edition) Beretta's.

I personally prefer the Taurus over the Beretta, Although I'll give fit and finish to the Beretta it's not quite as big a gap as you would think.
 
I think the Guy from South America worries too much...but I understand that. I used to worry too much also...about too many little things. I used to be concerned that leaving a pistol, e.g. For example my beloved Browning Hi Power cocked and locked would weaken (however slightly) the mainspring. Then I finally realized that people purposely swap Hi Power mainsprings for lighter 26 pound springs (as used to be normal). My MK III mainspring is a 32 pound mainspring. It would have to lose nearly 20% of its power just to approach what some people seek to have. I quit worrying about it.
 
Thats the reason for adking: to sort things out.

Remember, over here there areno spare parts availlable at gun shops. If the gun agency suddenly decides not to let import gun springs and other spare parts then I am screwed if I have a weak spring.

Over here: if a gun breaks on you, throw it away or sell it ripping off another person and buy a new one for 3 times the US price.
How about that?
 
So why don't you order some replacement springs now?? They are just freaking springs. Is there a problem having someone shipping springs to you? Does your country ban that too? I got a kit for my SIGs of every spring and pins in the whole gun for $20 US a short while back.
 
Springs lose their tension through heat and over compression or extension. Springs can build up internal heat when rapidly compressed and released even if they are not over compressed or over extended. External heat will ruin a spring if it gets hotter than about 400 - 450 F depending on the material.
You can store a spring in any compression or extension as long as it is within its working range. Since your hammer spring is made to work within the travel of the hammer you could store the gun with the slide locked back and not hurt the spring.
Store it in whatever position seems most practical to you.
 
My guns are all sa/da so I leave the hammer down with a round in the chamber. I draw and shoot. The only safety is me because the gun has to be fully cocked to use the safety. All my years with revolvers has spoiled me so I tend to stay with what I am used to.

How quickly can you draw, rack the slide and get on target? That is going to take a lot of training. (I can see me training to do that and then pull my revolver and try to rack the barrel... not a pleasant thought at all):eek:
 
JoeSixpack said:
Well in his test he IS cycling the spring to get his readings.. just saying.
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Right. But JohnKSa only cycled them very infrequently, when he was measuring spring strength -- and then ONLY because he had to unload them to measure the changes in the spring strength. That's NOTHING like frequently cycling (compressing) the springs when using the mags at the range. (Both springs were cycled the same number of times, yet one showed much more decline than the other -- but both continued to work as they should.)

What part of a spring's work cycle causes spring stress? The same part that makes any solid material (even glass, wood or rubber, for that matter) break: bending it too far. Bending it just a little is unlikely to cause any damage, but if it's bent too far, it can eventually break. With coil springs (and most materials) the damage comes in the form of micro-fractures that you can't see with the naked eye, but those fractures affect the metals ability to do it's designed work.

Stretching a spring is just different type of bending -- bending the material in a different direction. If a spring is already weakened by being worked past its elastic limit, stretching just pulls already broken metal roughly back into shape. And while the spring is pulled back into shape, the stretching process does NOT HEAL the damaged (micro-fractured) material. If it's stretched too much (which can happen when trying to rejuvenate a weakened spring), the pulling/stretching will just cause even more micro-fractures elsewhere in the material and accelerate the springs decline. More micro-fractures can lead to more micro-fracture... and the damage can cascade.

Metal doesn't really care whether it's being stretched or compressed -- as either action is a form of bending. If it's bent less far than it's elastic limit -- the distance it was designed to bend -- the materials can have a very long working life. Most springs aren't pushed to or beyond their elastic limits, and they can live long lives. (Tappet springs in cars as designed to cycle maybe 10-15 million times without failure... Other parts of the the engine will typically die long before a tappet spring gives up the ghost.)

This behavior isn't limited to steel: it can happen with aluminum alloys, polymer, wood, fibreglass, glass, rubber, or almost any solid material. They all have their own elastic limits.​

If a gun designer needs unusual behavior from a spring, he or she may decide the spring works best as a renewable resources. Then the spring will work for a while and fail, but that shorter-lived spring will allow some guns designers tp build gun that they couldn't build otherwise do -- like fit a very small 9mm semi-auto that functions much like a full-size 9mm gun, but fits into most any pants pocket.

It all depends on the mag design and how the spring is used. The same is true of recoil springs.
 
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As to the original question, I do not own a Beretta or Taurus so all I can say is that all of my firearms are stored with the hammer all the way down and I have not had to replace a firing pin spring in any of them that keeps the hammer in contact with the firing pin.

The only firing pin spring I have ever had to replace was in a revolver with rebounding action, the hammer held back off the firing pin except at the moment of discharge. Exactly what you propose with half cock storage. It is a matter of luck with a mass produced machine.

But my oldest is only 99 years old and it may have been changed before I got it Army surplus. My oldest gun bought new is still on its original springs since the 1960s and it was in good working condition the last time I shot it... yesterday.

I cannot advise as to condition of readiness except to say that all my self defense and home defense handguns are in the maximum state of readiness appropriate to the action type. Single action autos have the magazine loaded, the chamber loaded, the hammer cocked, and the manual safety engaged. DA/SA autos have the magazine and chamber loaded, the hammer decocked to wherever the lever sends it. (Some such guns go to an intermediate position, the CZ D series is the main one I know of, although some older Sig Sauers did, too.) Your Taurus can be managed either way.
I once carried a SA auto with the hammer down over a loaded chamber, to be thumb cocked when drawn. But when I realized I had been advised to do so by a lefthanded shooter in the days before ambidextrous safeties, I quit.
Double action revolvers have all chambers loaded, an empty under the hammer has not been needed for a good many decades.
 
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@TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Maybe you could round up all the guns with worn springs and we could import them into the US, I mean it's pretty shocking to hear you say you'd
toss gun because the springs are worn.. when the springs are like the cheapest
part on the gun to replace.. even if you didn't have OEM springs due to
import restrictions I'd have a hard time believe no one's making them (in country)

Springs are pretty cheap try to stock up now.. It's always good to have spare springs on hand.
Luckly most of the springs will interchange between Beretta/Taurus
So that's another avenue for you, Infact It's the easiest way to stock up since Taurus parts not readily stocked by anyone but Taurus.

Also I've heard of people using 1911 hammer springs in 92's
Never done it my self but I've heard it enough to believe it.
Beretta/Stoeger cougars appear to use the same hammer spring as the 92"D"
The D was the DAO model which had a lighter spring.. it's a common swap on the F/FS models to lighten the trigger.
Cougars are not nearly as popular the 92 series but again.. another option.

As I said before though hammer spring RARELY need changed, unless you're getting light strikes do not worry about it.

The only 2 springs you really need to worry about on the 92 is the recoil (that's the one over the guide rod) That needs to be changed at most every 5k rounds IMO.

And the trigger spring.
Trigger springs occasionally break.. when I say occasionally I mean it might take you 10k rounds or more they're just known to break more often then any other spring, If there is any spring that's going to break it's going to be the trigger spring.. wolf even makes a conversion spring which a lot tougher but I've never used it.

Like I've said before hammer springs are RARELY a problem you're worrying about the wrong springs.

as far as your plan to carry half cocked and empty.
I'd advice you no on both counts but you're gonna do what you're gonna do.

This came in my Email today I think you should have a look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FXHVjXPtJk
 
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You are completely rigth.
But I am not an store owner nor do I live in a city were you have people close up all the time.

On the other hand I believe I would never shoot the gun without a cover. For a store owner a gun in condition 1 is a must.

What if....
I woul have went behind that freezer appearing looking for my wallet to give him the money but instead slingshot the gun slowly and giving him the money and while he is busy receiving the wallet shoot the guy.
What if....
 
What if....
I woul have went behind that freezer appearing looking for my wallet to give him the money but instead slingshot the gun slowly and giving him the money and while he is busy receiving the wallet shoot the guy.
What if....
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If I saw you going behind the freezer, my thought wouldn't be you were going for a wallet. If you told me that's what you were doing I would be pretty much convinced you were lying.
 
The standard Beretta 92/Taurus PT92 is designed to be stored with the hammer down.

All the way down, no half cocked bs.

No discussion.
 
The "half" cock notch is actually only and 1/5th cock from fully down.

I would not want to dissasemble the firing pin part to Change that spring.

I assume the hammer spring is easier to Change.

safety cock notch is carry condition as I understand the Manual.

Store condition I dont know.
 
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