Speaking of the .380 Auto???

Sanch

New member
Modern firearms technology, computer aided design, and computer aided manufacturing, subcompact firearms chambered for the 9MM seem to be rising to dominate the category of CCW handguns. Some of these mighty midget handguns have 3" barrels and tip scales at 16 oz and less. A few accommodate mags that hold 10 rounds. What will these mighty midget handguns do to demand for .380 Auto handguns?. The advantages the .380 Auto had over the 9MM was smaller size and lighter weights. Those advantages have been obliterated.

I'm surprised that the 10MM has lingered after Jeff Cooper abandoned it and returned to his beloved 1911-A1 .45 ACP. Cooper was the father of factory production of the 10MM and carried one for a few years before returning to his 1911-A1 .45 ACP.

Cartridge predictions can be a dicey game. Due to shrinking production of 10MM handguns which reflects weakening demand, the 10MM is living on borrowed time. Mighty midget handguns chambered for the 9MM might put the .380 Auto on life support.

What's your theory? How would you defend it?
 
Sanch said:
What's your theory? How would you defend it?
.380 Automatic doesn't need to be defended. It stands on its own merits.

Are people buying and shooting firearms chambered in .380 ACP? Yes, they are. That's all we need to know.
 
I'm thinking 380 will hang around but more as a niche cartridge as the years go by. In my time shooting it has always been more expensive to shoot than 9mm. Now guns are about the same size as well, further taking away from the advantage the 380 had.

The 380 still has 1 main advantage though IMHO. It is generally a direct blowback gun whereas 9mm generally needs a delaying mechanism. This means the 380 can be simpler and cheaper to produce.
 
380 Federal DEEP Hydra Shok does 13-14" deep with full expansion.

That's better than some 9mm hollow points.

There is no 9mm handgun replacements for the LCP size.


So no. 380 isn't going anywhere.

My P365 vs my LCP. HUGE difference in size.
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Probably buying them, they are more popular than ever. But are they shooting them? Lol, not me, and I have a whole lot of ammo in storage. But will not waste it. It cannot be replaced. And I love shooting them. It sucks to have to stop as I was enjoying them each week for 10 years.
And the 380 rd. is improving all the time. They are fast and quick and just about nothing conceals better.
3 Pico's
2 Kahr's
1 LCP
1Keltec P2

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My carry gun is a SIG P938, which is based on the .380 P238, which is in turn based on the Colt Mustang.
I have a pocket holster, but the gun is just a bit too big and too heavy for pocket carry (in MY pockets).
Some who have both the P938 and P238 think the latter is a viable pocket pistol, where fractions of inches and ounces make a difference.
If "have a gun" is the first rule, a gun that can ride in a pocket would be a good option.
 
I agree 100% . a firearm that is this easy to carry is a big plus to most people .
I have a Sig Sauer P230 and underwood ammo . Never had anyone say what a nice little toy feel free to shoot me any time .
 
Physics.
You can not make a 9mm as small as you can make a .380.
You can not make a .380 as small as a .32.
You can not make a .32 as small as a .25.

Yes, there are 9mms as small as some .380s, etc. But if the same miniaturization is used, the .380 can be made smaller.
 
The smallest .380’s still fill a great niche in warm weather locations for many. They still slip in shorts pockets when even a compact 9mm is still just a tad too large.
 
Modern firearms technology, computer aided design, and computer aided manufacturing, subcompact firearms chambered for the 9MM seem to be rising to dominate the category of CCW handguns. Some of these mighty midget handguns have 3" barrels and tip scales at 16 oz and less. A few accommodate mags that hold 10 rounds. What will these mighty midget handguns do to demand for .380 Auto handguns?. The advantages the .380 Auto had over the 9MM was smaller size and lighter weights. Those advantages have been obliterated.

I'm surprised that the 10MM has lingered after Jeff Cooper abandoned it and returned to his beloved 1911-A1 .45 ACP. Cooper was the father of factory production of the 10MM and carried one for a few years before returning to his 1911-A1 .45 ACP.

Cartridge predictions can be a dicey game. Due to shrinking production of 10MM handguns which reflects weakening demand, the 10MM is living on borrowed time. Mighty midget handguns chambered for the 9MM might put the .380 Auto on life support.

What's your theory? How would you defend it?

I was told that CAD(computer aid design) and CSC machining have improve the reliability of handguns and the size becomes smaller. I was definitely interested in smaller lighter guns in 9mm. But then I start doing research, watching youtubes. I don't trust any particular youtube video, BUT I look at collectively how many bad reviews, report of malfunctions and just take it as numbers rather than what they say. You can definitely see the trend that

1) the bigger size guns definitely improved in reliability.
2) the smaller size guns have issues of feeding, particular ejecting.

I emphasize this is only my opinion. I read articles talking about recoil springs and it makes a world of sense. The major issue is the weight of the slide. The smaller the gun for say 9mm(as the subject here), the lighter the slide. To compensate the lose of weight, they need to put a stiffer recoil spring to prevent the slide from slamming onto the frame too hard( causing huge recoil and more importantly, stressing the frame and the components inside). That is where the problem comes in.

You can design using computer, and mill out the components more precise using CSC machining. But it is harder to control the spring. With a heavy slide, it is a lot more forgiving on the spring variation. But on a light slide, the spring serve a more major role to balance between too stiff where the slide cannot even travel all the way to eject the shell and strip the next round. If it is not stiff enough, then it can cause really bad recoil and crack the frame( small and thin also).

Then if the gun is small for the big bullet, the feed ramp path is very steep because you don't have space to let the bullet slowly rise up from magazine to the chamber. The steeper the path, the more likely you have FTF. Yes, CAD can optimize this.........BUT, it all based on the consistency of the size of the bullets AND the force of the slide pushing the new round into the chamber( again back to the recoil spring).

As the result, some people swear by the small guns when they happen to get one that is everything is just right. Or you have people that keep having problems. Everything is more critical when the gun becomes smaller and it show from the statistics.

This is my point of view as an engineer and from the recent research. I notice before, FTE are mostly stovepipe where the extractor, ejector angle or the eject port problem. Now when you watch youtube videos, a lot of what looks like double feed or the empty shell not even pull out all the way and looks like the shell and the next round stack together. That's more likely the slide was not traveled back far enough to pull the empty shell all the way to hit the ejector to pop the shell out and slam back stripping the new round out. Ending up the shell and the new round stacking in PARALLEL and stuck together.

As for myself, I am more set on Ruger LC380, bigger one, still 4 oz lighter than my Walther PPKS 380. More importantly, it's easy to convert LC380 to LC9. So I can always try it, if it fails, I just go back to the 380!!

I ruled out Kahr, if I really want to deal with it, I think I can solve the issue. If it fails, I can work on changing the recoil spring to a little lighter and see, or polishing the ramp and work on the ejector to make it work. But I really don't want to, because spring can change with time as it ages and bullets might be out of spec in length or something. I rather play it safe.



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matter of fact, even the bigger ones like between Glock 19 and the Glock 26 that I just bought. There are a few more yourtube on Glock 26 failure. You really don't see much failure with Glock 19 and Glock 17. I can tell you the recoil spring on the 26 is stiffer than my S&W659 full size 9mm. I am going to test the Glock 26 with some of my old reloads I bought that are known to be lighter charged and see whether it is still reliable. Glock 26 is nowhere small by any means with 3.5" barrel. Still, you can see the statistics. The recoil spring is 16lbs, if all else fails, I might consider changing to 14lbs spring. I would love to see a 15lbs spring on the market.
 
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Have to admit that I have a Keltec P3AT and it is a great little pocket gun if I could keep the mag release from popping out the mag. I carry in a pocket rig that Lou Alessi made for me but I'm hesitant to carry it till I come up with a way to keep the mag in. Shooting it can be a bit of a challenge as I find the recoil to be pretty nasty compared to other guns I have most of which are 1911s. Will they be around? No doubt, have been with us a long time and I don't think their shelf life has been reached yet.
 
One thing I have learned from shooting pocket guns in 380 is to change out the recoil springs very often. These little guns do take a beating. A big explosion in a small gun. I have been laughed at and ridiculed many times because I change out recoil springs every 500 rounds. And buy many wolf springs, and usually heavier weights if possible.
Say, what you want, but my 380's, Kahr and Pico and LCP all run great with a lot of ammo down range. The LCP which I do not shoot much will eventually go down much faster, but you can extend the life of it with frequent changing of the recoil spring.
I also change out my Micro 9mm springs at about 800 rds. I have one Nano now with 14,000 rds and running like a top.

Changing out recoil springs is a small investment. It works for me. Let the flames fly! (I am use to it)
 
9mm minimum, I don't carry 380

If one carries a 380 anywhere, everywhere they have confidence in it (or its all they have). Okay.

If one carries a 380 (by choice) in a "good area" but 9mm (or larger) elsewhere that speaks for its self; 380 is not their 1st pick for SD rather it is carried for convenience.
What gets carried in an area of greater "anticipated threat" is what is preferred. (If they do the good/bad area method of carry selection)
Defending 380 but not content to carry it anywhere, everywhere is not me knocking it. ;)

I'd prefer at least 9mm to defend myself (location independent) and carry accordingly, anywhere, everywhere. :)
 
"...might put the .380 Auto on life support.

What's your theory? How would you defend it?"

I believe the .380 will be around for a long time, for two reasons.

1) size - they can be small, almost as small as a Kel-Tec P32

2) weight - they are light

Small & light makes for a practical ccw.

PLENTY of people don't like the recoil of the .380 LCP.

9mm in a similar size and weight...forget about it. There wouldn't be enough buyers to make it worthwhile for a manufacturer to make them.
 
I apologize for my large picture, but anyone saying 9mm minimum might not know about a new round sold in summer of 2020. It's Federal DEEP 380 at 99gr. You can see it has a spire lead center that sends the round deep and the jacket is ultra thick copper with no bonding (ie, the jackets are just thick copper). The copper jacket doesn't have skivign cuts but press folds--really something to see in person.

The point of the picture is to show the thick copper jacket. Recall, copper is significantly stronger than lead. Doc Roberts only gave the okay for one 115gr 9mm for defense which was the Barnes all copper bullet.

This 380 round goes 13-14" and fully expands. That is exactly 2" from perfect 9mm performance.

Do I personally believe this dethrones the XTP in 380 (which did fine too)?

Yes.

tc7uiSll.jpg
 
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I apologize for my large picture, but anyone saying 9mm minimum might not know about a new round sold in summer of 2020. It's Federal DEEP 380 at 99gr. You can see it has a spire lead center that sends the round deep and the jacket is ultra thick copper with no bonding (ie, the jackets are just thick copper). The copper jacket doesn't have skivign cuts but press folds--really something to see in person.

The point of the picture is to show the thick copper jacket. Recall, copper is significantly stronger than lead. Doc Roberts only gave the okay for one 115gr 9mm for defense which was the Barnes all copper bullet.

This 380 round goes 13-14" and fully expands. That is exactly 2" from perfect 9mm performance.

Do I personally believe this dethrones the XTP in 380 (which did fine too)?

Yes.

tc7uiSll.jpg
I have read quite a bit about that round and intended to stock up on it, but sadly waited until it was too late (provided it shoots well in my guns). Personally my favorite round now and has been the PrecisionOne ammo and I have stocked up with a few thousand rounds of their XTP Plus P which shoot great in all my 380's.
I do believe the 380 is going to keep improving all the time in the future. (if we are still able to own a firearm). It is a popular round for millions that do EDC small guns. And the Ammo manufacturers IMO know this very well.
Thank you for the post and Pic. (it is not too large)
 
Carmady mentioned it first, but recoil is a factor for many people in choosing a .380 over a 9 mm. I would rather carry a 9, but old hands make that a problem. So I chose a Glock 42. It's very comfortable to shoot compared to any 9 mm in a similar size. That equates to more practice time and more confidence if I ever have to use it for defense. Yes, it's a compromise, but one I think a lot of people are going to make. That's going to keep .380 alive and well for a long time.
 
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