Sorry Ms. Raich, the drug war is more important than your life
- Thread starter Redworm
- Start date
You may not have said it has no use, but the law certainly does:
It is strange that the US government is supplying cannabis to a few patients like Irvin Rosenfeld, while at the same time saying there is no currently accepted medical use, but I guess that's not the strangest thing about the drug war.
Al. We have had this conversation before... several times if my memory is correct.
First, I would hope you concede that the medicinal benefits have nothing to do with something's legality. If the fountain of youth was contraband, whether it helped people or not would be irrelevant. Those arguments are pertinent in whether or not the law should be changed, but not on how the law is to be enforced.
As for Wickard, as I said before, I'm with you in that it was incorrectly decided. Someone growing things for personal use certainly cannot be in interstate commerce.
That said, most narcotics, pot included, come from outside the USA, undoubtedly placing them in interstate commerce. As a result, the feds can ban them at leisure. Consequently, the burden lies with the defendant to show that their pot wasn't in interstate commerce.
So let's wax hypothetical and pretend that tomorrow SCOTUS ruled that pot for personal consumption wasn't in interstate commerce and beyond the reach of the commerce clause. Guess what would happen. Uncle Sam would call up his 50 little cousins and say, "hey guys, you remember that gazillion dollars I give to you every year. Yeah, if you want to see any more of that, guess what laws you are going to pass." Presto bango, the states have now made pot illegal again.
Personally, I would much rather have it this way since its consistent with law and the constitution as I see it. However, practically speaking the result will be exactly the same.
Fear not. I can guarantee you that I never have, nor ever will partake in the consumption of any illegal narcotics, and most legal ones for that matter. From the way I have lead my life it would pretty much make me the biggest hypocrite in the world.
Should the good American people decide that they want to pass the dutchie round the left hand side then I will graciously accept the will of the majority. Just don't do it around me.
Can someone tell me where the Government gets the right to tell the citizens what they can eat, drink, or smoke? I don't support the use of Marijuana by children or teens, And I don't support the illegal smuggling of anything over our borders. But the mere possession of an herb, or plant is a felony? Says who? and why? I can understand the desire on the part of society to control the ownership and use of Machine guns, or explosives, rocket launchers etc. Notice I didn't say prohibit, I said control. With licensing, taxation and other legal methods. things that are dangerous to society should be watched. I have never seen any scientific evidence that marijuana is harmful to society. Maybe to an individual, but so is glue in a paper sack. Or gasoline, or ammonia when mixed with a nitrate, etc. The only harmful aspect of marijuana is lung damage from the harsh smoke. Cigarette anyone? Sure overindulging is harmful, but so is overeating, or drinking. If our country is in a WAR over drugs, we have lost that war. legalization, licensing, and taxation would GIVE us income, instead of spending billions trying to stop something the public has shown they want. Enough to risk prison for. I am not pro drug, but I am tired of watching our government spend resources and manpower on lost causes. Remember prohibition? It gave us organised crime and the Kennedy clan. Nuff said?
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... And we will most likely have it again.STAGE 2 said:
When we have 2 such disparate rulings on the same exact law, coming so darn close together in time, something needs to be done. It is glaringly obvious the neither Courts; the Legislature nor the Executive will lift a finger to make the necessary changes.
I detailed the "why" it's illegal. It had nothing to do with any medicinal benefits. That was merely a peripheral side issue.
When monied corporate interests dictate the laws, there is next to nothing the people can do. Voting in new reps and senators and presidents have done nothing to curtail the practice.
What we have when you couple Government power with Corporate money and control, is in a word: Fascism.
You tell me. What are the options that are left?
Playboypenguin
Moderator
Only sometimes...like how Y is sometimes a vowel.
For instance....you can break your leg AND have it heal completely buy you can't have your leg heal completely AND have a broken leg. In some circumstances it is subjective to a logical linear progression.
Pearl that bee-otch!
(Yeah, I managed to work the word be-otch into two separate posts in one 24 hour period.
)I've got two legs
(you're right, there should be a "then" after the "and")Stage: So from your last comment, it looks like even if MJ was legalized, you wouldn't partake? (not criticizing as I agree, just trying to be clear)
Even if you think it is bad, and that there is legislation that makes it illegal, there still remains that fact that it is classified as Schedule I, which is a huge joke.
Where did that money come from in the first place?
What you propose would work if the fedgov were an actor completely beyond the control of the people and their state governments, which itself is a bit too true these days.
But not completely true. Remember when Elizabeth Dole was transportation secretary (presumably before husband Bob discovered the 10th amendment) and the populous states used the method you describe to shove a speed limit of 55 down the throats of all the "flyover country" states, where it was neither needed nor popular? They did it through highway funds bribery, and it worked for a while, but ultimately it fell apart and the law was changed, giving states more latitude in deciding appropriate speed limits, if any.
From what I've seen, making medical use of cannabis illegal has even less support than the 55 speed limit did. In places where it has been put to a vote, the idea tends to win. Just like with the 55 speed limit, when people get frustrated enough over the fact that they can't live the way they want and still get THEIR MONEY back from their federal government, well, presto bango, the fedgov bribe scheme would fall apart again.
Marinol (the only FDA approved alternative to natural THC) is NOT as effective as medical marijuana. A simple search on the internet was enough to confirm that.
It makes no sense to use an expensive and therapeutically inferior product when marijuana itself is becoming increasingly more acceptable as a legal medical alternative.
It makes no sense to use an expensive and therapeutically inferior product when marijuana itself is becoming increasingly more acceptable as a legal medical alternative.
"Quote:
American could learn something from Holland in this regard.
Might want to rethink that....
Scan the forum for a post by someone that actually lives there.
He's quite distraught by the state of affairs, rising crime and overall degeneration of his homeland.
Well, he lives there so he would know more about whats going on then I would, but I will say that I have been there several times and walked all over that city (Amsterdam) at all time of day and night and I always felt safe, I wouldn't do that in most American cities.
I was speaking strictly of the pot policy that they have, decriminalize it, allow it to be sold in liquor stores and tax the hell out of it. If people want to smoke pot, they are going to get it anyways, obviously the "war" on drugs doesn't work. By doing the above you immediately put the street dealers out of business, freeing up jail space and other resources for the really dangerous drugs and criminals.
I doubt that violence is on the increase because of the "coffeeshops", most people coming out of there can barely move, much less get violent.
The Muslim immigrants have certainly added their share of problems in Amsterdam.
American could learn something from Holland in this regard.
Might want to rethink that....
Scan the forum for a post by someone that actually lives there.
He's quite distraught by the state of affairs, rising crime and overall degeneration of his homeland.
Well, he lives there so he would know more about whats going on then I would, but I will say that I have been there several times and walked all over that city (Amsterdam) at all time of day and night and I always felt safe, I wouldn't do that in most American cities.
I was speaking strictly of the pot policy that they have, decriminalize it, allow it to be sold in liquor stores and tax the hell out of it. If people want to smoke pot, they are going to get it anyways, obviously the "war" on drugs doesn't work. By doing the above you immediately put the street dealers out of business, freeing up jail space and other resources for the really dangerous drugs and criminals.
I doubt that violence is on the increase because of the "coffeeshops", most people coming out of there can barely move, much less get violent.
The Muslim immigrants have certainly added their share of problems in Amsterdam.
Nope. SCOTUS has made many a screwy decision, especially lately. The bottom line is that pot is illegal. There aren't any exceptions as far as I know of so whether you are Tom Dick or Harriet, it shouldn't matter.
Your equal protection argument doesn't advocate letting Raich use pot, it advocates taking pot away from Rosenfield, which I'm perfectly fine with.
Playboypenguin
Moderator
Stage2,
It seems to me that you whole argument boils down to "because the govt says so" and that you have very little interest in the facts of the matter or finding out whether marijuana should be illegal or not. You seem to be willing to completely disregard the entire medical community and willing to turn a blind eye to why it is actually made illegal and if it is a just reason or not.
It seems to me that you whole argument boils down to "because the govt says so" and that you have very little interest in the facts of the matter or finding out whether marijuana should be illegal or not. You seem to be willing to completely disregard the entire medical community and willing to turn a blind eye to why it is actually made illegal and if it is a just reason or not.
Everything that is legal or illegal is "because the government says so." I really have no interest in whether or not pot is illegal because I really have no substantial interest in whether or not it is illegal. I'm not disregarding anything in so much as I don't really care.
My sole point is that whoever wants the status quo to change needs to change the law. Process process process. The medical community could join in song about how great pot is, but that doesn't affect the validity of the law. Pot could cure cancer, aids and the black plague and that wouldn't affect its legality.
If y'all want the law changed, call your reps. If enough people raise enough stink, then regardless of the money the law will get changed. However, if enough people like the law the way it is then its not going to happen. I have a feeling that this is the reality of things.
Stage,
Last I heard there were 5 or 6 people besides Rosenfeld who get marijuana from the government. Your lack of awareness of those exceptions to the rule doesn't change that.
I'm not a lawyer, and while that may seem self-evident to you, it does not to me. Why doesn't it advocate letting Raich use it?
Last I heard there were 5 or 6 people besides Rosenfeld who get marijuana from the government. Your lack of awareness of those exceptions to the rule doesn't change that.
I'm not a lawyer, and while that may seem self-evident to you, it does not to me. Why doesn't it advocate letting Raich use it?
Give us a little time! It was quite recently that the Supreme Court decided that the practice of medicine should be regulated at the federal and not the state level in this area. It took quite a bit of time and money to change enough state laws to learn that new fact. Now it is going to take quite a bit more time and money to change things at the federal level.
Shadi Khalil
New member
Ever heard of crohns? Well its a sickness that involves the stomach. You experience nausea, loss of appetite, horrible stomach pains and vomiting. The doctor can give you something for all that but you can only take it so many times a day before it begins to mess with your liver. A little pot stops the pain and gets you eating. Doctors are yet to provide sick people with a safe and effective way to deal with wait loss. I'm sure many find this absurd, but at the same time they have no problem with the millions of people with back problems and such, driving the roads, roaming the streets high off their asses on legally prescribed pain killers.
That's the whole point of me making a thread like this. Bringing an injustice to light and hoping to strengthen opinions for medical marijuana, sway the fence-sitters and possibly turn some of the antis around. Same reason I post pro-gun opinions on more "liberal" forums.Stage 2 said:
I am trying to change the law but that requires people to agree with me.
1. Pot is not a narcotic.
2. Most of it is grown within the US and either way the pot that was relevant to this case was not only grown in the US but grown in California for a Californian and never left the state thus never entering into interstate commerce.
invention_45
New member
I think we'd all like things better if we would get the names of every legislator who has penned a law or an amendment thereto that relies on the Commerce Clause or on "Compelling Public Interes" and not much more for its justification.
Then, on the next available election, remove those names from the list of our representatives, unless such name could be associated between then and now with some wild and very publicly visible scrambling to repeal legislation based on those two principles and not much else.
Then, on the next available election, remove those names from the list of our representatives, unless such name could be associated between then and now with some wild and very publicly visible scrambling to repeal legislation based on those two principles and not much else.