Sorry Ms. Raich, the drug war is more important than your life

For starters they get the authority from U.S. Code Title 21 chapter 13

No, laws do not generate their own authority. ALL of the powers of the Congress can be found in Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution. So where, in article 1, section 8, do we find the authority for USC 21 ch 13?

They always seem to find it in the same place: the commerce clause. So I'll ask again, do you agree with what Alito said above?
 
You guys want to make it legal to smoke pot. Who's to say that my "rights" are to be regulated then?

1. Mechanics who can't find pot are probably too stupid to find work. Another poster already pointed out that tens of millions of Americans have managed to find it and try it, so it should be clear that maintaining the black market really isn't protecting you from pot smokers.

2. I want a limited federal government, because I understand that "all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State" are best left to the States under the design of our Consitution.

3. Do you agree with Alito, above?
 
"Wow, that has to win the "most irrelevent and illogical rant" award for this thread."

Like I said, talk big, but not give a straight answer...maybe we should bring in Mr. O'Reilly..


"They would get in trouble just like they would if they got hammered before they came to work. I can't go to work drunk, why would I be able to go to work stoned. A Co-worker wasn't allowed to come to work when they where on Oxycontin for a workplace injury. (Couldn't take it within 6 hours of your start time or something like that. So they could use it after the shift.) Same for a manager who had her wisdom teeth pulled and was given narcotics for the pain. You are making an issue of a nonexistent problem."

Why shouldn't you? Like I said before, pro-marijuana people seems to want it to make it a "right".

So, what it comes down to is..."well, since it 'can't' be regulated, made illegal, or stomps on people's 'rights', then we should go ahead and make it legal."

Better in the states that are legal? How about that bust in San Diego? Anybody of ANY age with a doctor's "recommendation" can purchase MJ, but the vast majority was dealing most of their MJ to others on the street. Guess it's OK for kids, not just adults...
 
I haven't missed your point anymore than you have missed mine.
Which is, 1. If the federal govt. make it legal. It won't be legal to grow unless you're a drug manufacturer and have FDA oversight. 2. There are alternative drugs available that act quicker, last longer and so far don't show signs of long term health problems associated with smoking.
Vaporization has no negative effects associated with smoking. None. Nada. Zilch. Not a single, solitary one. It's safer than eating it because you're not getting any cholesterol or fat that cannabutter contains. When medical marijuana is prescribed it usually comes with information about vaporizers. It's always the recommended form of consumption.


Those alternative drugs have worse side effects, more possible negative interactions with other drugs and can be highly addictive.
 
Ummm...did you read the Mayo report we are all referring to and t
hat was posted by Don?
it clearly states in the study that...
Quote:
Marijuana was listed by the U.S. Pharmacopeia, the organization that sets quality standards for approved drugs in the United States, until the 1940s, when political pressure against marijuana's recreational use triggered its removal.
The Mayo Clinic is a political group, they have to be. A single report stating that is rebutted by the history given in the previous post. Which one is correct? Can you perhaps find a company that produced medical-grade marijuana during the time period mentioned? I'm not being smart, just couldn't find one, myself.

Those alternative drugs have worse side effects, more possible negative interactions with other drugs and can be highly addictive.

The fact that MM hasn't been studied nearly enough for FDA approval renders that statement valueless. What it's interactions with other medications, or even other mega-dose vitamins or minerals will be, is unknown. While the effects may be benign health-wise, they may render the pain-relief null and void. If there is a discussion, let's keep it on an even field. :)
 
The logical fallacy of the circular argument.

What is the argument for the illegality of the substance in question? Because the government says so, via a law enacted by the Congress, pursuant to the Commerce Clause.

What gave the Congress the power to regulate a substance under this clause? The interstate traffic of a substance that is used in a commercial endeavor. The law states that any interstate traffic of the substance is unlawful.

If the interstate traffic of the substance is unlawful, how then does the Congress regulate the purely intrastate traffic in the substance? Because of a decision by the Supreme Court, any intrastate traffic of the substance may affect interstate traffic by negating the efforts of the Congress to regulate the interstate aspect of it's legislation.

Why didn't the Congress take this approach to alcohol prohibition? Because the Supreme Court had not at that time decided that the Commerce Clause included the nugatory effects of intrastate commerce in interstate legislation.

So, banning alcohol required an amendment to the Federal Constitution, but a few years later it would have only required a Supreme Court decision? Yes.

Why? Because the government said so (return to paragraph 3 above).

Jpseph Story: Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States
CHAPTER XV - POWER TO BORROW MONEY AND REGULATE COMMERCE.
§ 1075. The reasoning, by which the doctrine is maintained, that the power to regulate commerce cannot be constitutionally applied, as a means, directly to encourage domestic manufactures, has been in part already adverted to in considering the extent of the power to lay taxes. It is proper, however, to present it entire in its present connexion. It is to the following effect. - The constitution is one of limited and enumerated powers; and none of them can be rightfully exercised. beyond the scope of the objects, specified in those powers. It is not disputed, that, when the power is given, all the appropriate means to carry it into effect are included. Neither is it disputed, that the laying of duties is, or may be an appropriate means of regulating commerce. But the question is a very different one, whether, under pretence of an exercise of the power to regulate commerce, congress may in fact impose duties for objects wholly distinct from commerce. The question comes to this, whether a power, exclusively for the regulation of commerce, is a power for the regulation of manufactures? The statement of such a question would seem to involve its own answer. Can a power, granted for one purpose, be transferred to another? If it can, where is the limitation in the constitution? Are not commerce and manufactures as distinct, as commerce and agriculture? If they are, how can a power to regulate one arise from a power to regulate the other? It is true, that commerce and manufactures are, or may be, intimately connected with each other. A regulation of one may injuriously or beneficially affect the other. But that is not the point in controversy. It is, whether congress has a right to regulate that, which is not committed to it, under a power, which is committed to it, simply because there is, or may be an intimate connexion between the powers. If this were admitted, the enumeration of the powers of congress would be wholly unnecessary and nugatory. Agriculture, colonies, capital, machinery, the wages of labour, the profits of stock, the rents of land, the punctual performance of contracts, and the diffusion of knowledge would all be within the scope of the power; for all of them bear an intimate relation to commerce. The result would be, that the powers of congress would embrace the widest extent of legislative functions, to the utter demolition of all constitutional boundaries between the state and national governments.

Sadly, Justice Story was correct.
 
Antipitis,
Using your argument. Anything that is not spelled out in the constitution, but is instead enacted by congress is not a legal law. Murder is not spelled out in the constitution therefore it's not illegal to kill someone? Guess, we no longer have a need for a legislative branch.:confused: :confused:
 
Is tobacco in general a multi-billion dollar enterprise for organized crime?
Actually, it is. Contraband cigarettes are a huge blackmarket/criminal industry. Illegal cigarettes are bg business...especially in midwest states, Canada, eastern Europe, and China. Here are a couple quotes from the Kohl/Hatch bill.

"Contraband cigarettes contribute heavily to the profits of organized crime syndicates, specifically global terrorist organizations," stated Hatch. "Furthermore, illegal cigarette trafficking has had a damaging impact on the economies of numerous states."

"Compounding the problem, counterfeit cigarettes, on which smugglers have paid no taxes, are becoming more and more common. In 2001, the U.S. Customs Service made 24 seizures of counterfeit cigarettes. In 2002, they made 255 seizures. Phillip Morris estimates that 100 billion counterfeit cigarettes are produced in China alone."
 
The Mayo Clinic is a political group, they have to be. A single report stating that is rebutted by the history given in the previous post. Which one is correct? Can you perhaps find a company that produced medical-grade marijuana during the time period mentioned? I'm not being smart, just couldn't find one, myself.
The Mayo Clinic is a political organization??? Where the hell do you get that. They deal solely with medical and health care topics. How are they a political organization???

Plus, all you have to do is research marijuana itself and you will find many, many sources that colaberate that statement. You will also find record that it was an approved medical treatment until it was removed in the 40's for "moral and political" reasons. It was removed without negative studies or any other reason after much political presure.
 
Using your argument. Anything that is not spelled out in the constitution, but is instead enacted by congress is not a legal law. Murder is not spelled out in the constitution therefore it's not illegal to kill someone? Guess, we no longer have a need for a legislative branch.

Wow, I can dance circles around that statement, but I'll just let everyone reflect on its absurdities.
 
Man I tell ya this thread has gone on and on and on and except for Antipitas and very few others it has gone nowhere.
Whats the big deal? Anyone that so desires to smoke the stuff will have no problem getting their hands on it, and with any kind of caution at all never bring the law down upon themselves.

Gosh guys go smoke it if you feel that strongly about it.
I Donna know if the getting high is such a good idea but I doubt it is any worst or as bad as Alcohol and the industrial growing and use should be legalized. IMO.

Ya'all are just going n circles seems to me.
 
The Mayo Clinic is a political organization??? Where the hell do you get that. They deal solely with medical and health care topics. How are they a political organization???

The Mayo Clinic receives funding from various Foundations, and the State and Federal government. They have to espouse many lines to obtain this funding. Do you really think that this isn't one of the most common definitions of political.

Plus, all you have to do is research marijuana itself and you will find many, many sources that colaberate that statement.

Which is, of course, political-speak for "How would I know?"

If you'll excuse me, your entire post was a giant "I don't know".:D
 
The only reason pot is illegal is because the government and the drug companys can't figure out a way to make money on it. Yes there are drugs that do the same thing as pot, so ask yourself one question "why are THOSE drugs legal?". Because someone is making a pile of green off of it. Liquor has almost the same affect as pot too but It will kill you if you drink to much (IE alcohol poisoning) when is the last time you heard of someone dieing from a POT overdose?:rolleyes: Therefore, liquor being the more deadly substance, should it not have been first to be made illegal? Tell that to the governments that are making millions off the taxes on liquor!:cool:
 
DonR101395 said:
Using your argument. Anything that is not spelled out in the constitution, but is instead enacted by congress is not a legal law.
Wouldn't that be the definition of limited but enumerated powers?

But I'm willing to be swayed, Don.

So tell me, why was an amendment required to make Alcohol unlawful but not required to make certain drugs unlawful?

As for the other part of your statement, it is meaningless. A non-sequitur. Murder was a common law offense long before it was codified into law.

rem33 said:
Whats the big deal?
Put quite simply, the usurpation of power by the Federal government. That should be enough to get any thinking Americans dander all in a fluff!
 
The Mayo Clinic receives funding from various Foundations, and the State and Federal government. They have to espouse many lines to obtain this funding. Do you really think that this isn't one of the most common definitions of political.
You just decribed how pretty much every single public hospital in the USA gets it money. That does make them a 'political" institution. The mayo clinic receives funding from all ends of the political spectrum and shows a great history of impartiality and factual study practices. Show me a case where they have not?
Which is, of course, political-speak for "How would I know?"

If you'll excuse me, your entire post was a giant "I don't know"
No, the post was full of "it is easy to find and public record". You are just trying to use the tired internet tactic of "show me every little piece of cut and paste info you can find (whichI will probably deny also) or I will invalidate your whole argument with a shrug, a glib statement and a true lack of interest in learning the truth." This tactic is so old and so sad. It is just a way for people to say "unless you can beat me over the head with information I am too intellectually lazy to look it up and unwilling to let go of my own ignorance unless forced to do so." It so much easier to deny, deny, deny than it is to defend your own side ofthe argument.
 
Better in the states that are legal? How about that bust in San Diego? Anybody of ANY age with a doctor's "recommendation" can purchase MJ, but the vast majority was dealing most of their MJ to others on the street. Guess it's OK for kids, not just adults.

Kids have more trouble buying alcohol than pot because people who sell alcohol operate from a fixed location, have a license, and the cops have a better chance of catching them if they're selling to kids. People who sell pot sometimes are kids, and they're darn difficult to catch.

The only thing which will really put a black market out of business is a legal market.
 
Kids have more trouble buying alcohol than pot because people who sell alcohol operate from a fixed location, have a license, and the cops have a better chance of catching them if they're selling to kids. People who sell pot sometimes are kids, and they're darn difficult to catch.

The only thing which will really put a black market out of business is a legal market.
wow that is the only reason kids in my home town (Lima, Ohio) smoke weed is because we couldn't get alcohol. And yeah a legal market for a product will put the illegal market out of business, hence why their is no illegal market for cereal.
 
Wouldn't that be the definition of limited but enumerated powers?

That was intended more as a question than a statement. It confuses me also at times. Sorry for the confusion. I was in a hurry on the way out the door to the range.


But I'm willing to be swayed, Don.

My legal abilities aren't that of a lawyer. I know when I'm out of my lane, and constitutional law is out of my lane.

So tell me, why was an amendment required to make Alcohol unlawful but not required to make certain drugs unlawful?

Not the right answer, but the best I can come up with is that courts and legislatures change as do their interpretations of laws and powers.


As for the other part of your statement, it is meaningless. A non-sequitur. Murder was a common law offense long before it was codified into law.

Ir was a common law offense stemming from religious beliefs. Therefore if you have no religious beliefs it should not be an offense. Once again not practical, but could be argued I suppose.

Just to set the record straight. As ferociously as I've been arguing the opposing point. I'm simply playing devils advocate. In reality I'm not totally opposed to legal mj. I just don't see it being a solution that will work.
I don't believe the government will allow "home brew" marijuana. If they legalize it, they will regulate it to the point that only drug companies will be able distribute it and the home growers will still be arrested for doing such. Much like if you tried to make "home brew" codeine for your consumption.
I've really enjoyed the debate, but I'm leaving town for the summer tomorrow and my internet access will be limited at least for the next few weeks.
If anyone would like to further the conversation pm me or email me and I'll get back with you as soon as I can.


PP,
You make good arguments. I've enjoyed it.



Don
 
Don, I'm no lawyer either. I just argue with 'em. :D

Oh, and you'll find that the crime of murder goes back to the Code of Hammurabi, Mesopotamia (Babylon), ca. 1760 B.C. Recognized as one of the first codex of written laws.

Enjoy your summer and look in on us, from time to time.
 
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