Something new to play with

[GWS]

I agree with your father....sacrilege!

I do think the method has merit with 9mm cases though. 9mm to .40/10mm bullets.

Like this:

Jonblack at arfcom did those in 2010...got quite a following.

Alas, I'm too lazy to do either one....probably too dumb too. Interesting ideas though!

 

[FrankenMauser]

GWS, I would be using a proper die for these, as well, if I CH4D hadn't had their entire inventory of .44 swaging dies and parts bought out by a single person. ...and/or if that person would get their own production run finished, instead of just jabbering about it all the time, and blaming his suppliers for delays.

I would really like to be putting a proper ogive on these bullets. It would eliminate at least half of the problems that are created by trying to work with the sharp, short nose profile the 7x57 die provides.

But, until some one makes a reasonably priced die available, I have to keep working with what I've got.

 

[Edward429451]

I love this kind of poor man technology. Anything home rolled is better than store bought. Dangit, I had a couple thousand 40 S&W brass and traded it off. That's not a very big shopping list to add J 44's to the lineup, I think I may just put this on the list and try some.

I'M wondering if I took one of your 44s if I could bump it up to .451 on my Corbin press (s dies). Prolly too hard to.

 

[FrankenMauser]

I'M wondering if I took one of your 44s if I could bump it up to .451 on my Corbin press (s dies). Prolly too hard to.

There are a few people doing just that, even with reloading presses; but you need to anneal the cases first. Failing to anneal them results in the body not expanding uniformly. So, the base and body are not concentric. Obviously, that is not conducive to in-flight stability.

I believe BT_Sniper on castboolits even sells a "one step" die in .45 caliber, designed to use .40 S&W cases as jackets.

 

[FrankenMauser]

A minor accuracy and velocity update; since it may be all I can manage before the Elk hunt.

I got another chance to shoot some of the 275 grain bullets across a chronograph last Saturday. I was quite surprised at the result. The velocities are as much as 150 fps faster than I had estimated.

Whether it's due to decreased bore friction, from the zinc in the brass; or due to using slightly under-sized projectiles (by 0.0005"); I don't know. But, they are running faster than expected.


Back in post 17, I had estimated 47.5 grains H4198 to be pushing these bullets at 2,225 fps. However, Saturday's testing showed that load to be averaging 2,363 fps.
From there, the velocities consistently increased.


I was having a bad day and couldn't really hold things together. So, I only managed to print a 4-shot group of about 3" @ 80 yards (I didn't bother measuring).
However, my father was 'on his game', and managed to hold on to a 1-3/4" 4-shot group, at the same distance.

So, these bullets appear to be perfectly capable of "hunting accuracy" at a minimum; and further load development may even tighten things up.


I say "may" because I wasn't able to finish testing everything I had loaded. I had barely gotten started with the .40 S&W bullets.
My experimental "One Ounce Suppository" cast bullet loads managed to shift the scope in its rings, and I didn't have the tools to fix it. So, the .444 had to be put away for the day, without finishing what I had started with either set of tests.
--The one ounce suppository being a 428 gr bore-rider bullet, whose load increments got it to 1,855 fps in a 6.3 lb rifle, before recoil took revenge on the scope. (I can't say that the shooter was really enjoying the recoil, either, though....)


If all else fails before then... I may just do some more testing during the Elk hunt.

 

[FrankenMauser]

I just noticed, I never posted an update about the failed bonding process.

I still haven't figured out how to get the liquid flux to work for me. So, I may just go back to using the paste flux. It's more cumbersome and doesn't bond as well, but is cleaner and more reliable.

I haven't had a good batch of bonded bullets, since that previous post. If I end up using these on the Elk hunt, I'll be using the unbonded bullets. I have faith that they're tough enough for the job.

And, the Elk hunt is in October, not November. (Idiot...)

 

[FlySubCompact]

Franken,

I am not a bullet maker (yet). Matter of fact, I just started reloading, but I have done a lot of soldering and brazing in my trade.

Regardless of what type of flux you are using, you only need a scant film on clean brass to make a bond. Maybe you could get a round wire brush and mount it in a hand drill to score/clean the inside of the cases for flux prep. Then make an oversized Q-tip (also sized to snugly fit inside the prepped case) that is just damped with liquid flux. That way you get a thin, even film of flux inside the case before the lead is set in there.

Interesting thread, BTW.

 

[Edward429451]

I believe the bonding process would have less failures if the inside of the cases were deoxidized. Think how plumbers clean their copper & brass fittings with a wire brush so the solder will bond properly. Flux stops the oxidation from occuring from the heat of the torch as you (solder). As noted, it takes less flux than you think it might, but the case will have to be squeaky clean first.

 

[FrankenMauser]

The 275 gr unbonded version of these bullets was used to successfully take a 6x6 Bull Elk, this last week.

.444 Marlin (Handi-Rifle)
Winchester .40 S&W case with pure lead core
2,335 fps (muzzle)


This Elk was taken on top of a mountain (literally 30 feet from the peak), and took 3 days to pack out (note the pack frames in the photo). So, I didn't really have the time, energy, or motivation to document hits, wound channels, or bullet recovery efforts. That's why there aren't any photos of that (unless one of my hunting partners has some).

First shot was not an ideal shot, but I took it none-the-less ... it was all I had, and I had faith in the bullet. I fired through a tree for a left-hand, broad-side, liver shot at ~75 yards, that tore the diaphragm and blew the liver into 3 pieces. It was a fatal shot, although not immediately fatal. The entrance wound was about 54 to 58 caliber (presumably from the bullet going through the 5/8" tree branch it cut off). The bullet caused some minor damage to the far-side ribs and soft tissue, but did not exit. The bullet was lost in the gut pile, but no fragments were found. It is presumed to have held together well.

Second shot was, again, not ideal. I had to shoot through a tree, again, for a left-hand, broad-side neck shot. But, this shot was at about 25 yards, and through a much thinner new-growth Doug Fir branch. The bullet blew the spine up (as intended), severed both arteries and veins, left a few jacket (brass) fragments in the wound channel, and stopped part way through the nearly-3/4" thick hide on the far side of the neck. Gravity took over, and he was done.

The second bullet was recovered. I'll post photos and a (clean) recovered weight as soon as I find the macro adapter for my camera. The jacket did not separate, as some people (including myself) suspected may happen without bonding.

(I somehow managed to get the angle just perfect, so it looks like a 5x5 in the photo. But, I assure you, there's one tine hiding on each side.)

I've never been a big fan of hanging antlers all over the house, even though my wife is pretty excited about it. (This is my first Elk.) But... she's mad that I didn't get a chance to shoot the big one in the herd. This was, after all, the "little" guy. But... I'm very happy to see all of this redneck R&D proving worthwhile.

 

[hooligan1]

Very cool Frankenmauser!! congrats of course on the research and development.

 

[FrankenMauser]

Thanks, hooligan.
--


As mentioned before, this is the bullet that was recovered in the neck.

The bullet expanded to 0.699" by 0.634" and had a recovered weight of 181.6 grains.
That's 154% expansion (average of the two measurements) and weight retention of 66%.
Those figures are better than some "premium" bullets like the Nosler Accubond.

(Recovered weight includes a 5.4 grain piece of lead that was broken off while being passed around the camp fire. Photographed weight is 176.2 gr.)

 

[FrankenMauser]

And, a photo of the homely test bed for most of these experiments and the fruit of my labors.... still barely showing a sixth point on the right side, and only the shadow of the hidden main beam on the left side.

 

[hooligan1]

I'll be over for "backstraps" after I get my lawn mowed, and some firewood split.
Seriously I would like to squeeze a few of those dudes off into an elk.

 

[FrankenMauser]

They worked well.
It was very nice to see.

 

[Sevens]

Damn Grandstander....


Pretty awesome!
The feeling...it's got to be tremendous.

Pretty outrageous trophy, too.

 

[FrankenMauser]

I haven't done anything further with this bullet, in the way of testing, hunting, or R&D, since my last updates.

However, I figured I'd add a video of a water jug test done by "mt sourdough" on the Marlin Owners forums.

275 gr Bonded version, at 2160 fps.
mt sourdough noted: "It is possible that this is the hardest hitting 44 cal bullet that I have tested in this weight range." (He has tested over 80 bullets in .444 Marlin, with the majority in the 250-300 gr weight range.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIWmMt7685s

It doesn't penetrate quite as far as some of the competition (by a jug, or so), but it hits hard.



If you like cast bullets....
At the opposite end of the spectrum, is a video you may find interesting, if you've seen anything about the 427 gr bore-rider bullet I designed for my .444 Marlin. It is the best-penetrating bullet he has ever tested.
427 gr Bore-rider @ 18 BHN
1470 fps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jwjVxIJV-s

 

[FrankenMauser]

Chapter Two:
.475" bullets:

Theory: .45 Auto cases should make great .475" bullets when redneck-swaged in an appropriate die.

Reality: Very few dies have the correct dimensions. Only 6.5-284 Norma is in current production and suitable for the cartridge when combined with a Lee bullet sizing die "pusher".

Last week, I FINALLY found a 6.5-284 Norma sizing die for a decent price. I've been looking for quite a while. On clearance at Midway, I actually had a choice between Forster and Redding sizing dies for $25 and $23 respectively. I went with the Redding for the steel lock ring and larger fillet at the die mouth.

Which brings us to the proof of concept. It's a win.
There are some adjustments to be made, and I need to fine-tune case length and core dimensions, but it's viable.

To expand the cases to accept a .475" Lee "pusher", I chopped a Lee .500 S&W expander die that had already been fitted with a .480 Ruger expander. About 3/8" was removed, in order to get the expander within reach of the .45 Auto case. (The .500 S&W 3-die set was purchased used last year, and dirt cheap, since the shop owner didn't even know he had it.)
Somewhere, a .500 S&W owner is screaming at his computer screen:

Side note: This is one of the reasons why I hate Lee dies for serious reloading tasks. They aren't even hardened. I chewed through this die in about 45 seconds ... with an old blade.

Shortly thereafter, I discovered that the minimum body taper design of the 6.5-284 Norma meant that a .475" pusher won't fit in the die once there's a .45 Auto case wrapped around it. I couldn't find my .458" pusher. So, I had to go to one of the .44 caliber pushers. It wouldn't be suitable for production use, because excess lead bleeds around the edge, but it's good enough for proof of concept.

I grabbed some scrap lead wire from setting up my home-built core cutter last year, found a piece around 250 grains - which is was just a rough estimate that I came up with based on experience with the .430" .40 S&W bullets - and crammed it into the die.

A few smacks of the under-sized ejector gave me a win. The nose was over-inserted into the die, but that's one of the things that'll be fine-tuned later on:

It looks like somewhere around 350 gr will be a good weight for untrimmed cases:
(The uneven lead in the nose was caused by the undersized .44 caliber "pusher" allowing lead to bleed around the edge, and made worse by the undersized ejector punch.)

And sizing, fresh from the die, is about as good as it gets:
(And a trip through a .475 bullet sizer will squeeze the middle down with almost zero effort, if it's needed.)

(The ".477" reference mark is actually 0.4766".)


Tools to track down to do this right:
-My .458" Lee bullet sizing kit, for the pusher. Or, order a .452" sizing kit.
-An appropriately sized section of drill rod for ejecting the bullets from the die. Right now, everything is just slightly oversized, or significantly undersized.
-Something I'm forgetting.

The only remaining test:
Will they feed in an AR-15?
...Stay tuned to find out.

 

[FrankenMauser]

The only remaining test:
Will they feed in an AR-15?

Yes. Yes, they will feed. And, beautifully, at that.
It's go time.


0.452" bullet sizing die ordered from FS Reloading (along with a .357" die, 'cause, apparently, I don't have one).

That just means that I need to figure out what to do for cores.
I'll probably experiment with some 0.375" lead wire until I get the weight right. Then I'll decide whether to stick with the wire (I still have about 15 lbs from the last run of .44 bullets), or if I should find a .44 caliber bullet mold for the task.

 

[cornbush]

Need to find an elk to test these in as well....

 

[Jbotto]

I agree cornbush^^^ Maybe with a bigger bullet, a bigger elk is needed! Franken, I always enjoy your posts! Keep it up!