Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
You should put 22 shells in the middle to act as a hollow point!
Something new to play with
- Thread starter FrankenMauser
- Start date
Uncle Buck
New member
Tag.
This is too cool not to follow.
This is too cool not to follow.
FrankenMauser
New member
The plan, from here (in no particular order):
-Finish my new reloading bench. Swaging these bullets is putting a lot of stress on my Redding T-7 turret press. I'd prefer to get the new bench finished, so I can mount my Rock Chucker for swaging these bullets. The RC also has a better mechanical advantage, so it will take less work from the human at the handle.
-I need to decide on a finished bullet weight (or two) to stick with, so I can decide on a mold to use for consistent cores. Right now, I'm cutting cores from the lead wire and tricking up to the desired weight with #9 lead shot. I can't see the voids and graphite from the shot being good for accuracy. NOE molds makes a multi-weight pointed soft point three-cavity mold (412-210) that is really close to what I would want. I need to see if the owner can make me a custom mold for the exact weights I want.
-And, of course, accuracy testing.
-Finish my new reloading bench. Swaging these bullets is putting a lot of stress on my Redding T-7 turret press. I'd prefer to get the new bench finished, so I can mount my Rock Chucker for swaging these bullets. The RC also has a better mechanical advantage, so it will take less work from the human at the handle.
-I need to decide on a finished bullet weight (or two) to stick with, so I can decide on a mold to use for consistent cores. Right now, I'm cutting cores from the lead wire and tricking up to the desired weight with #9 lead shot. I can't see the voids and graphite from the shot being good for accuracy. NOE molds makes a multi-weight pointed soft point three-cavity mold (412-210) that is really close to what I would want. I need to see if the owner can make me a custom mold for the exact weights I want.
-And, of course, accuracy testing.
Consistency could be met by weighing cases or possibly using 40cal lead bullets weighed out and pressed in the 40 SW case. Two thumbs up for Frankenmauser.Between you and BT Sniper over on Castbolits, you fellows are going to get me to swadgeing my own yet.
He uses C&H dies he modifies to work a bit better than the standard version and there are quite a few folks who are putting out some GREAT looking bullets from all sorts of different caliber cases.
Thanks for sharing yours.
He uses C&H dies he modifies to work a bit better than the standard version and there are quite a few folks who are putting out some GREAT looking bullets from all sorts of different caliber cases.
Thanks for sharing yours.
I have a one step die from BT Sniper over at castboolits. It works great. I heat up the 40 brass in a grill to aneal it so it's easier to swage. I cast a boolit from a Lee 40cal mold out of pure/soft lead and drop it in the case. I don't have the notched die but the hollow point comes out great. Too bad I sold my 44 before I got to shoot some.
FrankenMauser
New member
Yep, yep. Totally different methods, but the same end result: cheap jacketed bullets that we can claim as our own.
One of the reasons I decided to try this method is because Brian is taking so friggin' long getting his next batch of .44 One-Step dies finished. (And he bought out CH's inventory.
)I have a plan for a 'notch' die, but it requires an investment of about $45. So, that might not happen until I have some proper swage dies.
When I have an update for this thread, I'll post it. For now, I'm working on the things listed in my previous post (bench, core mold, etc), and trying to let my thumbs heal up. Sorting, cleaning, and packaging all of the hulls and brass from Saturday has annihilated my thumbs and fingers. Both thumbs, both index fingers, and a few other fingers are cracked and bleeding.
Edit: The up side is that Cornbush's kids picked up about 200 pristine pieces of .40 S&W brass, that will make fantastic bullets.
So the bleeding fingers might be worth it. ...not very easy to type with all these fingers taped up, though.
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Edward429451
Moderator
This is so cool. Tag.
thedaddycat
New member
Man, that is really neat! Too bad I cashed in a lot of scrap metal over the last year or two. I had about 700# of lead......
For now I'll just worry about learning to reload with purchased components. Maybe some time down the road I'll give this another look. In the mean time, I'm subscribed, too.
For now I'll just worry about learning to reload with purchased components. Maybe some time down the road I'll give this another look. In the mean time, I'm subscribed, too.
Well I have two of Brians sets in mind, but it will be a while before I am able to advance them any further than having them on my wish list.
I have plenty of brass, and lead for when the time comes, and will probably go with something for a .452, that I can squeeze out a 275-325'ish grain out of. As for the nose, well the ones he has that are coming out looking so much like a XTP would would my purposes just fine. Since these will be for the 454, it won't take much to get them opening, it is the thickening of the base which I am hoping will keep them from turning inside out. I just simply cannot afford the XTP's in the numbers I like to shoot, and I like to practice with what I hunt with.
The other I want would be for my 41mag. While I have plenty of JHP's in the 200 - 220 range for it, but I really loved the now discontinued Remington 170gr SJHP. Loping along at around 1550 - 1700 it was an awesome performer, very muck akin to the way the much acclaimed 125gr .357 loads work. Those big exposed soft lead, deep hollow pointed noses, with that scalloped jacked really do a number on mid sized critters.
So when the time comes I will get with him and see if between the two of us we can devise something comparable. What I have seen already has been nothing short of great, so who knows.
As the old saying goes, patients, patients, patients....
I have plenty of brass, and lead for when the time comes, and will probably go with something for a .452, that I can squeeze out a 275-325'ish grain out of. As for the nose, well the ones he has that are coming out looking so much like a XTP would would my purposes just fine. Since these will be for the 454, it won't take much to get them opening, it is the thickening of the base which I am hoping will keep them from turning inside out. I just simply cannot afford the XTP's in the numbers I like to shoot, and I like to practice with what I hunt with.
The other I want would be for my 41mag. While I have plenty of JHP's in the 200 - 220 range for it, but I really loved the now discontinued Remington 170gr SJHP. Loping along at around 1550 - 1700 it was an awesome performer, very muck akin to the way the much acclaimed 125gr .357 loads work. Those big exposed soft lead, deep hollow pointed noses, with that scalloped jacked really do a number on mid sized critters.
So when the time comes I will get with him and see if between the two of us we can devise something comparable. What I have seen already has been nothing short of great, so who knows.
As the old saying goes, patients, patients, patients....
FrankenMauser
New member
I've been waiting on bullet molds to show up, so I could cast some cores.
The molds arrived last week, and I did get some experimental cores cast. But, I didn't cast enough for a full batch of bullets.
Next time I crank up the casting furnace, I'll punch out a few hundred cores. (.401" 175 gr TC, and .410" 195 gr SWC) Then, I'll be able to do some proper accuracy testing.
In the mean time, I made a new ejector rod out of .295" polished O-1 drill rod, and have been experimenting with case lengths and die adjustments for various different results (taking notes for HPs, SPs, protected points, etc).
I'm juggling quite a few projects right now. Once I get my new reloading bench done, I promise I'll post a video of the process.
The one thing I have definitively decided is: Wheel Weight alloy is not appropriate for this application. It's too hard on the press. I'm sticking to alloys of 5-8 BHN, from here on out.
In the future, I'll probably bond everything going in the .444 Marlin, but not the bullets for the .44 Mags.
The initial tests used bullets that were bonded with paste flux, but I plan to upgrade to Corbins Core Bond in the future. (The cost and results are almost identical, compared to cheap flux (or liquid flux), but the Core Bond is designed for the application.)
The molds arrived last week, and I did get some experimental cores cast. But, I didn't cast enough for a full batch of bullets.
Next time I crank up the casting furnace, I'll punch out a few hundred cores. (.401" 175 gr TC, and .410" 195 gr SWC) Then, I'll be able to do some proper accuracy testing.
In the mean time, I made a new ejector rod out of .295" polished O-1 drill rod, and have been experimenting with case lengths and die adjustments for various different results (taking notes for HPs, SPs, protected points, etc).
I'm juggling quite a few projects right now. Once I get my new reloading bench done, I promise I'll post a video of the process.
The one thing I have definitively decided is: Wheel Weight alloy is not appropriate for this application. It's too hard on the press. I'm sticking to alloys of 5-8 BHN, from here on out.
Some of the test bullets were bonded; some weren't. (The ones in the photos are labeled as bonded, if applicable.)
In the future, I'll probably bond everything going in the .444 Marlin, but not the bullets for the .44 Mags.
The initial tests used bullets that were bonded with paste flux, but I plan to upgrade to Corbins Core Bond in the future. (The cost and results are almost identical, compared to cheap flux (or liquid flux), but the Core Bond is designed for the application.)
FrankenMauser
New member
I finally made it back into the reloading room, for the first time in more than 3 months.
I really felt like I was making progress at knocking out a large run of 275 gr bonded bullets ....until some problems started popping up.
I'm not entirely sure what ALL of the problems are being caused by, but I know a big factor is the liquid flux I used for this round of bonding. It works too well, and makes any lead that boils over instantly adhere to the outside of the jacket. And, this flux takes longer to boil off, so it causes more lead to boil out of the jackets, as well. Having lead on the outside of a jacketed bullet kind of defeats the whole purpose...
So, I'll have to experiment with this flux a little more, or just go back to the paste flux I was using for bonding. The paste flux is a giant pain in the butt to use (and about 2 minutes per bullet
), but it works very well.
I also had a large number of cases in this batch of jackets that were deformed when picked up (stepped on, run over, or otherwise out of round). I straighten those cases with my Lyman M die, in order to trim them, and haven't had a problem in the past. However, those cases kept returning to their deformed state as soon as the lead reached its melting temperature, during the bonding step. Once they go back to that out-of-round condition with a core bonded to the jacket, it's nearly impossible to salvage them, because the mouths snag on the seating punch and cause deformities. So, they're pretty much instant rejects (like the ones with lead bonded to the outside).
Bottom line:
I got a lot done, but of the 40 bullets I bonded, I was only able to declare about 15 usable. ...and now I'm questioning whether I can trust them.
I would like to keep using the liquid flux to save time, and it does produce a better bond. So, I might experiment with a heavier bullet, made with a duplex core, in the same jacket length.
It would be a Lee 400-175-TC (or lighter bullet) for the primary core, that would be bonded to the jacket. It would be swaged to eliminate air pockets, in the normal fashion. Then, a smaller core (35-50 grains) would be swaged on top of that. When the nose is formed, the extra lead would extrude out of the case slightly, and form more of a soft-point than the current protected point/hollow point appearance.
I was hoping to have some serious in-depth accuracy testing done by now, but it seems that the development cycle is never-ending. Whatcha gonna do?
Everybody likes pictures, so.....
125 prepped jackets
125 weight-matched cores and jackets
(Cores are pure lead Lee 410-195-SWCs. The mutant noses were trimmed, due to over-weight cores.)
One at a time, the redneck way. It takes about 45 seconds, apiece; not counting pulling the bullet out of the case, applying the flux, and sticking the bullet back in nose-first.
(Note the boiled-over lead sitting in the burner, due to the excess boil time of the liquid flux. Every bit of lead down there means a bullet is going to be off 0.2-0.5 grains {or more}, and might be a reject.)
A minor note... Apparently, I am too stubborn for my own good. I kept wanting to plug along with the bonding process, even though my welding glove was getting seriously hot on the back of my hand. When I was done, I discovered that I had given myself a 1st degree burn, by not taking a break. Idiot...
I really felt like I was making progress at knocking out a large run of 275 gr bonded bullets ....until some problems started popping up.
I'm not entirely sure what ALL of the problems are being caused by, but I know a big factor is the liquid flux I used for this round of bonding. It works too well, and makes any lead that boils over instantly adhere to the outside of the jacket. And, this flux takes longer to boil off, so it causes more lead to boil out of the jackets, as well. Having lead on the outside of a jacketed bullet kind of defeats the whole purpose...
So, I'll have to experiment with this flux a little more, or just go back to the paste flux I was using for bonding. The paste flux is a giant pain in the butt to use (and about 2 minutes per bullet
), but it works very well. I also had a large number of cases in this batch of jackets that were deformed when picked up (stepped on, run over, or otherwise out of round). I straighten those cases with my Lyman M die, in order to trim them, and haven't had a problem in the past. However, those cases kept returning to their deformed state as soon as the lead reached its melting temperature, during the bonding step. Once they go back to that out-of-round condition with a core bonded to the jacket, it's nearly impossible to salvage them, because the mouths snag on the seating punch and cause deformities. So, they're pretty much instant rejects (like the ones with lead bonded to the outside).
Bottom line:
I got a lot done, but of the 40 bullets I bonded, I was only able to declare about 15 usable. ...and now I'm questioning whether I can trust them.
I would like to keep using the liquid flux to save time, and it does produce a better bond. So, I might experiment with a heavier bullet, made with a duplex core, in the same jacket length.
It would be a Lee 400-175-TC (or lighter bullet) for the primary core, that would be bonded to the jacket. It would be swaged to eliminate air pockets, in the normal fashion. Then, a smaller core (35-50 grains) would be swaged on top of that. When the nose is formed, the extra lead would extrude out of the case slightly, and form more of a soft-point than the current protected point/hollow point appearance.
I was hoping to have some serious in-depth accuracy testing done by now, but it seems that the development cycle is never-ending. Whatcha gonna do?
Everybody likes pictures, so.....
125 prepped jackets
125 weight-matched cores and jackets
(Cores are pure lead Lee 410-195-SWCs. The mutant noses were trimmed, due to over-weight cores.)
One at a time, the redneck way. It takes about 45 seconds, apiece; not counting pulling the bullet out of the case, applying the flux, and sticking the bullet back in nose-first.
(Note the boiled-over lead sitting in the burner, due to the excess boil time of the liquid flux. Every bit of lead down there means a bullet is going to be off 0.2-0.5 grains {or more}, and might be a reject.
)A minor note... Apparently, I am too stubborn for my own good. I kept wanting to plug along with the bonding process, even though my welding glove was getting seriously hot on the back of my hand. When I was done, I discovered that I had given myself a 1st degree burn, by not taking a break. Idiot...
Attachments
FrankenMauser
New member
Instant rejects
The "sink" in the top of these indicates that they did bond, but the fact that they're all off-center means they're marginal, at best. Also note that almost all of them have some kind of lead ring bonded to the case mouth. That is NOT desirable, and causes problems during swaging. So far, this liquid flux is looking like a failure, other than the fact that the bond is stronger.
Some examples of a process I've been playing with, to try to save some of the out-of-round rejects, that are otherwise on-weight and bonded well.
Instead of feeding the jacket and core into the die base-first, I start by feeding it nose-first (if it will enter the die). Then, I turn it over and run it back in base-first. And, finally, nose-first again.
After the abysmal results from yesterday, I may have quite a few of these to experiment with.
I know everyone wants to see some serious accuracy testing, but I need to work a few more bugs out before I can commit to a large batch again. Trust me, I want to shoot a bunch of these even more than you want to see the photos.
The "sink" in the top of these indicates that they did bond, but the fact that they're all off-center means they're marginal, at best. Also note that almost all of them have some kind of lead ring bonded to the case mouth. That is NOT desirable, and causes problems during swaging. So far, this liquid flux is looking like a failure, other than the fact that the bond is stronger.
Some examples of a process I've been playing with, to try to save some of the out-of-round rejects, that are otherwise on-weight and bonded well.
Instead of feeding the jacket and core into the die base-first, I start by feeding it nose-first (if it will enter the die). Then, I turn it over and run it back in base-first. And, finally, nose-first again.
After the abysmal results from yesterday, I may have quite a few of these to experiment with.
I know everyone wants to see some serious accuracy testing, but I need to work a few more bugs out before I can commit to a large batch again. Trust me, I want to shoot a bunch of these even more than you want to see the photos.
Attachments
FrankenMauser
New member
And, one last post for the night...
I just want to point out that the unbonded versions of these bullets suffer from absolutely none of the problems I've discussed above. It's just the bonding process (and components) that are causing problems.
But... my primary motivation right now, is being able to hunt Elk with my own bonded bullet this November. So, bonding is my priority. While working out the bugs, I may throw together 100 or so of the unbonded 250-275 gr bullets for use in .44 Mag; but that can be done very quickly (if the cores are available) and isn't a high priority.
I do hope to have enough good bullets to do thorough testing on the 4th of July, though. So, I do have a bit of a deadline. We'll see...
I just want to point out that the unbonded versions of these bullets suffer from absolutely none of the problems I've discussed above. It's just the bonding process (and components) that are causing problems.
But... my primary motivation right now, is being able to hunt Elk with my own bonded bullet this November. So, bonding is my priority. While working out the bugs, I may throw together 100 or so of the unbonded 250-275 gr bullets for use in .44 Mag; but that can be done very quickly (if the cores are available) and isn't a high priority.
I do hope to have enough good bullets to do thorough testing on the 4th of July, though. So, I do have a bit of a deadline. We'll see...