Onward Allusion
New member
???
Did I miss something here? Where is this coming from? Did anyone state anything remotely close to what you are suggesting?
some thoughts on the tactics and strategy of defense
- Thread starter JiminTexas
- Start date
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Did I miss something here? Where is this coming from? Did anyone state anything remotely close to what you are suggesting?
TheNocturnus
New member
MLeake said:
"Given that a typical 12ga pattern is less than 1" per yard distance, how much less likely do you think you are to hit Fido with your G23 when shooting in a high-stress scenario, as opposed to the shotgun?
Frankly, I'd go with whichever one you are more comfortable shooting."
Fair enough. I am fairly proficient with my G23 and am very comfortable with it. I hit the range at least once a week, but that gives me no experience firing inside my house while under stress and seeking cover. We have no kids, just critters. In all likelyhood my pets would all be in hiding when SHTF and none of them would be around the front area of my house.
So maybe a shotgun wouldn't be such a bad idea afterall. Like I said earlier, I am fairly new to HD guns and gun ownership period. I hope I would never have to be in a situation where I would have to defend my own with lethal force, but I know I would not hesitate.
"Given that a typical 12ga pattern is less than 1" per yard distance, how much less likely do you think you are to hit Fido with your G23 when shooting in a high-stress scenario, as opposed to the shotgun?
Frankly, I'd go with whichever one you are more comfortable shooting."
Fair enough. I am fairly proficient with my G23 and am very comfortable with it. I hit the range at least once a week, but that gives me no experience firing inside my house while under stress and seeking cover. We have no kids, just critters. In all likelyhood my pets would all be in hiding when SHTF and none of them would be around the front area of my house.
So maybe a shotgun wouldn't be such a bad idea afterall. Like I said earlier, I am fairly new to HD guns and gun ownership period. I hope I would never have to be in a situation where I would have to defend my own with lethal force, but I know I would not hesitate.
MikeNice81
New member
I have a CZ P-07 Duty and 31 rounds of Winchester Ranger Bonded 147gr ammo. It will easily sail through dry wall and other barriers. That is why I chose it. (plus my wife will practice with the 9mm) If I have to shoot through my bedroom door, the bar in the kitchen, my sofa, or a cabinet door, I want to know I can.
Where I live because of my detached garage and the terain the chances of hitting anyone outside is very low.
Is a 5'6" 135lb person a big target when you are bleary eyed, just woke up, and your muscles haven't recovered from sleep? Not really. It gets even worse when you think of the extra affects of adrenaline. There is a reason the hit rate in gun fights stays around 25%. Now add the extra issue of waking up.
In my rather small home I could be called on to make a 12 yard shot to protect my child's room. Try putting two or three shots in a 5" circle at that distance. Now do it in less than 3 seconds from low ready. Not easy awake and prepared? Even harder stumbling out of sleep.
I live relatively close to a prison. If the convict is desperate enough to escape he probably is going to put up a fight. If they are trying to get a car or money to aid in their escape they will probably be very determined. I don't assume any one will leave in any amount of time. Assuming a criminal will act rationally has gotten many good people killed.
Two kids armed with semi-auto pistols shot up a deputy sheriff's car less than two miles from my house. Do you think five rounds is enough to hold off those two clowns if they decide to come in? If they had no problem trying to ambush a cop they will have no problem killing you for a way to escape.
Would you want to face those two kids with a 5 shot revolver? I wouldn't, even if I had a half dozen speed loaders.
When it comes to defense everybody's situation is different. It seems like you thought out what works best for you. Just remember the rest of us have different situations.
Thanks for starting the discussion though.
Where I live because of my detached garage and the terain the chances of hitting anyone outside is very low.
Is a 5'6" 135lb person a big target when you are bleary eyed, just woke up, and your muscles haven't recovered from sleep? Not really. It gets even worse when you think of the extra affects of adrenaline. There is a reason the hit rate in gun fights stays around 25%. Now add the extra issue of waking up.
In my rather small home I could be called on to make a 12 yard shot to protect my child's room. Try putting two or three shots in a 5" circle at that distance. Now do it in less than 3 seconds from low ready. Not easy awake and prepared? Even harder stumbling out of sleep.
I live relatively close to a prison. If the convict is desperate enough to escape he probably is going to put up a fight. If they are trying to get a car or money to aid in their escape they will probably be very determined. I don't assume any one will leave in any amount of time. Assuming a criminal will act rationally has gotten many good people killed.
Two kids armed with semi-auto pistols shot up a deputy sheriff's car less than two miles from my house. Do you think five rounds is enough to hold off those two clowns if they decide to come in? If they had no problem trying to ambush a cop they will have no problem killing you for a way to escape.
Would you want to face those two kids with a 5 shot revolver? I wouldn't, even if I had a half dozen speed loaders.
When it comes to defense everybody's situation is different. It seems like you thought out what works best for you. Just remember the rest of us have different situations.
Thanks for starting the discussion though.
MikeNice81
New member
No you are assuming things that were never said.
My pistol will get me through most situations. However, there is a loaded Mini 30 in the bed room. If my child is in their room I am using the pistol and going to get them.
If my child is in my room the wife gets the 9mm and I get the Mini 30. She takes up position in the bath room and I take a position behind the bed. If they try to come through the bedroom door they will get a nice load of 123gr Federal soft point ammo. They will get as many as I can deliver. If they manage to get through me, she will have 16 rounds of 9mm to make a stand with.
The Mini 30 could kill a person at 100 yards. In my case it will be used at less than 7 yards. It will be unloaded quickly. The reason is that a rifle bullet is much better at stopping any target. It does more damage than a handgun and does it with more accuracy. If I had a shotgun on hand I would load it with 0 or #3 buck and use it for hunkering down.
I've also been in the situation where a group of rowdy drunk kids decided to harass my family in the middle of the night. The cops got there and broke it up. However, what if the kids had shot at the house? I would have been forced to shoot back to protect my family. Bullets penetrate walls. A shot at my house is an attempt to harm or kill my family. I will return fire.
In that case a good rifle could be worth it's weight in gold. At those distances it would be more accurate than a shotgun or handgun. That means it actually has less chance of causing collateral damage.
Not all defense situations are at ten feet. Some of us live in worlds different than yours. So, try a little understanding or questioning before jumping to assumptions.
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JiminTexas
New member
Unlike the majority of responders, I HAVE read all that is posted (i.e Onward Allusion ((sic))) and all that I can say is I now understand why there are so many people trying to take away our gun rights.
TylerD45ACP
New member
I always have a mag of FMJ on hand 115gr. lawman sometime 124 gr. +p FMJ and in my 55906 is Horaday FXT 115gr. stanard pressure. 30 rounds at my disposal.
Steel plated BBs penetrate better than lead BBs of the same size, but it's still not optimal for HD. #1 Buck typically is the smallest shot size that will consistently and reliable penetrate to 14". Number 1 Buck gives more wounding channels than the 00 Buck, but we've done a poll on it and a lot of people are sold on the 00 Buck and that's just the way it is.
I don't understand why someone would reserve their most powerful and most effective weapon for a backup. If your home is built to code, you're not going to have hallways that are 1 foot wide or have to go around corners that you can't go around with an 18.5" SG with normal LOP. I've actually walked through my house and theres no place I can't manuver, but - I'm not going to be clearing my house anyway, just defending it from immediate threat. I know it is easier to open doors armed with a handgun versus a longarm, but this also applies to other threads about the follow of trying to "clear" your own house. I think there are very few situations in which the average 18.5" "tactical" shotgun is not the better choice. Convential wisdom just tells you that someone aremed with a handgun is woefully outgunned by someone weilding a shotgun. I think it takes some creative scenario spinning to come up with a situation where a gun is somehow better than a shotgun. Unless all the stairways in your house are spiral stairways and you have to get to some choke point to protect your loved ones via spiral staircase... I just don't see it.
Another thing I wanted to point out is I never will use a flashlight. I think it's a fallacy to beleive that the moment you turn it on it's going to be pointing directly at the intruders eyes and it's going to instantly and completely incapacitate him.
If the intruder is not in the beam, you're just giving him something to shoot at if he's so inclined.
I am a big beleiver in backlighting. I have the bottom of the stairs backlit with a night light in the bathrooom. It's also backlit from streetlights from the windows dowstairs. The top of the stairs where me and my kids are - is pitch black. I've verified and gone through it many times from both sides, and it's a case of "I can see you but you can't see me".
The whole thing about staying low is more than just doing something that the BG doesn't expect, it's just long standing good tactics of presenting the smallest frontal target to the enemy as possible.
I don't understand why someone would reserve their most powerful and most effective weapon for a backup. If your home is built to code, you're not going to have hallways that are 1 foot wide or have to go around corners that you can't go around with an 18.5" SG with normal LOP. I've actually walked through my house and theres no place I can't manuver, but - I'm not going to be clearing my house anyway, just defending it from immediate threat. I know it is easier to open doors armed with a handgun versus a longarm, but this also applies to other threads about the follow of trying to "clear" your own house. I think there are very few situations in which the average 18.5" "tactical" shotgun is not the better choice. Convential wisdom just tells you that someone aremed with a handgun is woefully outgunned by someone weilding a shotgun. I think it takes some creative scenario spinning to come up with a situation where a gun is somehow better than a shotgun. Unless all the stairways in your house are spiral stairways and you have to get to some choke point to protect your loved ones via spiral staircase... I just don't see it.
Another thing I wanted to point out is I never will use a flashlight. I think it's a fallacy to beleive that the moment you turn it on it's going to be pointing directly at the intruders eyes and it's going to instantly and completely incapacitate him.
If the intruder is not in the beam, you're just giving him something to shoot at if he's so inclined.
I am a big beleiver in backlighting. I have the bottom of the stairs backlit with a night light in the bathrooom. It's also backlit from streetlights from the windows dowstairs. The top of the stairs where me and my kids are - is pitch black. I've verified and gone through it many times from both sides, and it's a case of "I can see you but you can't see me".
The whole thing about staying low is more than just doing something that the BG doesn't expect, it's just long standing good tactics of presenting the smallest frontal target to the enemy as possible.
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I'll leave it to others to analyze the subject to death----and you're doing a good job of it so far.
For a simple minded ol' geezer like me, when the shootin' starts I'd like to have the shotgun in my hands. With enough fore warning, it will be.
My 870 is in the bedroom that I may have to retreat to. If I can't get to it, things will have to be settled with the pistol which is always close at hand.
Sounds like a better tactical philosophy than giving up one or the other. For myself, both are part of my HD system.
If the Sheriff Dept. knocks on my door and says they're looking for 3 murder suspects that may be in my neighborhood, I'll be getting into my safe and breaking out the AR with pistol on my person.
For a simple minded ol' geezer like me, when the shootin' starts I'd like to have the shotgun in my hands. With enough fore warning, it will be.
My 870 is in the bedroom that I may have to retreat to. If I can't get to it, things will have to be settled with the pistol which is always close at hand.
Sounds like a better tactical philosophy than giving up one or the other. For myself, both are part of my HD system.
If the Sheriff Dept. knocks on my door and says they're looking for 3 murder suspects that may be in my neighborhood, I'll be getting into my safe and breaking out the AR with pistol on my person.
JiminTexas,
What's with the (sic) in your quote of Onward Allusion?
You do realize he didn't misspell it, right? An allusion is different from an illusion, which is in turn different from a delusion.
An allusion is a passing or incidental reference to something, either directly or by implication. Example: JiminTexas alluded to claims about shooting people at distances, that were never actually made by anybody in this thread.
An illusion, OTOH, is a distortion of the senses, or misinterpretation of a true sensation. Example: JiminTexas set up arguments against claims that had never actually been made, in order to create the illusion that TFL members were excessively bloodthirsty.
Whereas a delusion is a belief that is mistaken or unsubstantiated, often held with strong feelings or emotions and expressed forcefully. Example: JiminTexas suffers from the delusion that he is making a cogent argument, or else from the delusion that we can't see through his debate tricks.
Morals of the story: 1) Straw man arguments may be a valid debate trick, but they normally don't win many debates. 2) Don't make fun of somebody's spelling, just because they have a larger vocabulary than you may realize; some lexicons are bigger than others.
What's with the (sic) in your quote of Onward Allusion?
You do realize he didn't misspell it, right? An allusion is different from an illusion, which is in turn different from a delusion.
An allusion is a passing or incidental reference to something, either directly or by implication. Example: JiminTexas alluded to claims about shooting people at distances, that were never actually made by anybody in this thread.
An illusion, OTOH, is a distortion of the senses, or misinterpretation of a true sensation. Example: JiminTexas set up arguments against claims that had never actually been made, in order to create the illusion that TFL members were excessively bloodthirsty.
Whereas a delusion is a belief that is mistaken or unsubstantiated, often held with strong feelings or emotions and expressed forcefully. Example: JiminTexas suffers from the delusion that he is making a cogent argument, or else from the delusion that we can't see through his debate tricks.
Morals of the story: 1) Straw man arguments may be a valid debate trick, but they normally don't win many debates. 2) Don't make fun of somebody's spelling, just because they have a larger vocabulary than you may realize; some lexicons are bigger than others.
Onward Allusion
New member
Er, seriously - What are you talking about???
You start off by preaching to the forum members what kind of weapon they should used based on *your* HD/SD criteria. Then you start attacking when members point out that other people may be in different situations and that your weapon of choice and methods aren't applicable in all situations.
You write paragraphs after paragraphs making assumptions toward scenarios that border on the irrational. No one has stated that they would shoot someone 50 or 100 yards away. No one has said they would kill anyone who happens onto their property by mistake.
Now you say you understand why there are so many people trying to take away our gun rights??? Please explain in a clear and concise manner and perhaps you may garner the support you're looking for. However, at this point, I am completely confused as to what you are trying to say.
The big advantage a rifle or shotgun has is the delivered energy. A single .223 has roughly 2-3 times the muzzle energy of a .45ACP cartridge. A 7.62x51 cartridge generates over 5 times the ME of an average .45ACP cartridge. Depending on the bullet design, that would provide a lot higher chance for a 1-2 shot stop.
Range isn't the only factor in choosing a firearm.
Range isn't the only factor in choosing a firearm.
orionengnr
New member
It is my guess that the OP has never shot a living thing (larger than a dove) with birdshot.
youngunz4life
New member
I am almost to the point where the shotgun will be our 1st HD weapon. I already know I would feel more comfortable with the shotgun over a handgun. There are other reasons why the loaded revolvers are our primary HD weapons though.
Is it true that leaving the shotgun loaded for long periods of time is bad for the weapon?? this isn't the reason our mossberg isn't our primary HD weapon(child safety is), but I have never known the correct answer to this. Was it just the oldtimer shotgun shells which could hurt the barrel? I like to know I can leave any of my given weapons loaded for pretty much as long as I wish. I do provide 365 days per year of a good atmosphere, but the loaded weapon storage option is important to me.
Is it true that leaving the shotgun loaded for long periods of time is bad for the weapon?? this isn't the reason our mossberg isn't our primary HD weapon(child safety is), but I have never known the correct answer to this. Was it just the oldtimer shotgun shells which could hurt the barrel? I like to know I can leave any of my given weapons loaded for pretty much as long as I wish. I do provide 365 days per year of a good atmosphere, but the loaded weapon storage option is important to me.
Younggun – I think leaving a shotgun loaded is just fine. I’m pretty sure a lot of law enforcement shotguns remain loaded for extended periods of time. Good for you for mentioning safety in your situation. Perhaps there might be an issue using paper hull shells if the shotgun got wet. Using plastic shells I don’t THINK there would be a problem. I bet some law enforcement, or MP types here could give you a more experienced answer though.
There was a story that is probably an urban myth about police officers finding ‘ball bearings’ rolling around on the floor of their patrol car then later finding out that the ‘ball bearings’ were shot from their shotgun. In the story the shotgun was mounted muzzle down with a round chambered and with the vibration and bumps in the car the crimp on the chambered round loosened and the shot worked its way out of the shell. Again, probably just a story.
There was a story that is probably an urban myth about police officers finding ‘ball bearings’ rolling around on the floor of their patrol car then later finding out that the ‘ball bearings’ were shot from their shotgun. In the story the shotgun was mounted muzzle down with a round chambered and with the vibration and bumps in the car the crimp on the chambered round loosened and the shot worked its way out of the shell. Again, probably just a story.
Youngguns, we carried our shotguns loaded all the time in LE. We did fire the ammo at each qual (4X a year), as we found that some oo Buckshot shells would bulge a bit due to heat and constant pressure on the rounds.
Top save $$, you could choose to just unload and check each round twice a year. After all, your home is more climate controlled than the trunks of our cars.
The other thing you may wish to consider is using an extened mag tube, downloaded one round - that is, if it will hold 8, only load 7. It reduces the pressure on the rounds.
Top save $$, you could choose to just unload and check each round twice a year. After all, your home is more climate controlled than the trunks of our cars.
The other thing you may wish to consider is using an extened mag tube, downloaded one round - that is, if it will hold 8, only load 7. It reduces the pressure on the rounds.
youngunz4life
New member
yeah that is what I was thinking too. I think I am 7 +1 but it might be 8 +1 in my mossberg.
I would download one and I would leave the chamber empty. Thanx for your answers. I believe many law enf carry loaded all the time but unlike their sidearm they leave the chamber empty? *makes me think of the above story posted* I even think in some agencies it is pretty much taboo to drive around with the shotgun with one in the chamber? I might be wrong but that was my impression. yeah, the shotgun gives us a better chance in a home invasion situation(in my opinion). At least in our area where we live, but nothing wrong with our revolvers. gonna need to decide...
I would download one and I would leave the chamber empty. Thanx for your answers. I believe many law enf carry loaded all the time but unlike their sidearm they leave the chamber empty? *makes me think of the above story posted* I even think in some agencies it is pretty much taboo to drive around with the shotgun with one in the chamber? I might be wrong but that was my impression. yeah, the shotgun gives us a better chance in a home invasion situation(in my opinion). At least in our area where we live, but nothing wrong with our revolvers. gonna need to decide...