Some Thoughts About the 13 yr Old with the AK and Responses

[Rich Lucibella]

Rich, perhaps you could help the rest of the class (or just me) and list a few laws that are not enforced currently.

Spiff-
In most major cities in this country, the firearms violations are the first to be dropped or plead down by prosecutors.
Rich

 

[spacemanspiff]

In exchange for a 'guilty' plea? Or 'No Contest'? Are they doing this because they don't want to spend the time getting convictions? Are the prosecutors lazy? Lack confidence in the evidence presented to them?

My questions are rhetorical, not combative. To solve this problem, you'd have to clear out the prisons, which are likely full of non-violent offenders, most likely caught in the War on Some Drugs, so then you'd have to make changes on that front, then there are all those people imprisoned for things like tax fraud. The entire system is flawed. There is no easy answer.

 

[Wildalaska]

And thats the first thing that educated responsible gun owners can change...

Make it clear to ELECTED DAs that there will be zero tolerance on gun crimes....

Of course, that wouldnt please the more radical members of the gun rights mileau would it

WildextremelyhungoverAlaska

 

[KSFreeman]

Yes, but should not a distinction between mala in se and mala prohibitum be made as to "gun crimes"? For example, big difference to me to a "criminal" FFL who transposes numbers on a 4473 vs. a dealer selling stolen guns or selling guns to known gangsters.

 

[Rich Lucibella]

To solve this problem, you'd have to clear out the prisons, which are likely full of non-violent offenders, most likely caught in the War on Some Drugs

Bingo

Make it clear to ELECTED DAs that there will be zero tolerance on gun crimes....

Of course, that wouldnt please the more radical members of the gun rights mileau would it

When I think "radical", I think of guys like LaPierre and Heston. Seems to me these two championed Project Exile, which is about as tough and unflinching toward firearms crimes as you can get. I guess I'm a "radical", too. I agree with the program promoted by these "radicals".

You don't, I assume, because you're more "middle ground".
Rich

 

[Eghad]

about 90% of cleared criminal cases result in a plea bargain.

First we need to recognize that more gun control laws are not going to effect those who are criminals or mentally insane. They will only effect those who obey the law. Enforcement and punishment are the only tools in the arsenal that will effect some of the criminals. There are some criminals who dont give a rats behind about the law and the penalties. Mental helath is a whole issue by itself.

I too beleive we have the laws we need on the books. We just need to put the money/authority in those laws instead writing new ones to make us feel warm and cuddly.

 

[Wildalaska]

You don't, I assume, because you're more "middle ground".

Alwys agreed with Project exile, especially when they chased felons in possesion.

I wouldnt classify Wayne as Moses as radicals then

WildouchmyheadAlaska

 

[p230]

I guess I just don't see firearms as the problem at all. I am not that old (35) and my wife and I have 3 kids. Hopefully we will never be involved in something like this. I think the problems are with the people themselves. If you eliminate firearms you will still have an unbalanced young person ticking away. For pete's sake, I never thought about killing anyone when I was in school. Got turned down by plenty of girls and lots of other things that just seem to drive theses kids crazy. Perhaps we should focus more on rasing a well adjusted person who does not think it is OK to shoot someone who teases them and also teach them not to tease too much themselves.


I have to wonder if my wife and I are doing right by our kids. My wife stays home with the kids. So far they are not even playing sports when many of our friends run around town all day taking their kids to this and that. I am determined to just let them be kids for a while. We talk about the way things are then procede to keep doing the same think. Well I am not going to and I hope I am right, only time will tell. Guns, knives or whatever ARE NOT THE PROBLEM, it is something much deeper seated that I am afraid will take a long time to work out in our society if it ever does.

p230

 

[gvf]

Response

Well, we usually think of gun control as regulations affecting an individual owner or prospective owner. Or we think of the criminal with his illegally obtained weapon mugging someone. CCW and hunters etc aren't the problem, but neither is just the criminal.

So let's maybe work with the "middle" on how to track and interrupt some of the source - large trafficers, or their accomplices, who intentinally sell to criminal elements. I know little about this, but I have a friend who was Secret Service, mum about details of his past work of course, but alluded to this problem - not the guy in the ma and pa gun store being misled by phony info from a felon driving into town from outside a state, but major transfers of weapons knowingly going to thosuands of felons. Seems something may be done there that would offend no one and help the image of gun owners to the "middle".

Don't jump all over this now, it's a practical shift of focus I'm suggesting and inquiring about.

The major reason I'm applying for CCW is the HUGE number of shootings in my hometown, by youth, recently, as part of gang warfare and other such activity that spills over into other areas. And an occasion when but for an alert 911 operator I could have been dogmeat trying to help a woman who was going to get attacked and had nothing to protect me.

Sometimes these "kids" are arrested with expensive sounding weapons that I would have to think about my finances before buying. Where are they coming from? No answers here but I don't think anyone would agree it's a good situation. Maybe we can help, resonsible gun owners (and those who hope to be).

Best
J

 

[azurefly]

Bars, for one. I work at one, and even though we pat down every male that walks in I still dont feel safe. Yes, i did say only the male patrons, apparently the bar doesnt wish to risk getting slapped with a harrassment suit by us frisking the females, and we have no female doorstaff (other than the cute hostesses), but so far, none of the females has figured out they can get their own weapons in).

This is a perfect example of a useless "law" (in the sense that it's the bar's "law").
An example of how a policy, rule, or law is put in place even when anyone observing its application can determine right at the outset that it can be easily evaded, and its purpose utterly defeated.

Some guy wants to have his gun at the bar, he gets his compliant woman to bring it in for him, in her handbag or in her waistband or wherever. She gives it to him inside the establishment, after he has been patted down.

So what if not every guy who might want to bring a gun into the bar has a woman with him who will cooperate and assist him? The fact is, it can be done. And then you'll have a problem, and someone will go, "But we were searching at the door!"


-azurefly

 

[spacemanspiff]

All of us working there know its senseless. But the owner made the decision. We do look in larger handbags, and the occasional frisky female who demands it will get a pat down, but in those cases the female is just looking for us to find her 'fun spots' rather than an actual weapon search. Heck, a lot of the time they arent wearing much in the way of clothing, and most are willing to 'reveal' body parts in order to waive the cover charge.

But back to the issue... In all honesty, there is only one group of people that tries to come to the bar and will cause problems, and that particular group has been 86'ed. Its a racial thing. "reserve the right to refuse service to anyone", along those lines. No Samoans are allowed in the bar. And its not just our bar, several others have also taken this stand. The bar i work at is an 'Alaskan' bar, 90% of the patrons are alaska native, who are passive in nature. This bar is so native, the one doorman that is caucasian had the nickname 'Whiteboy' embroidered to his security shirt.

 

[Rich Lucibella]

I know little about this

That's evident. You might consider spending more time learning and less preaching at this particular point.

but I have a friend who was Secret Service, mum about details of his past work of course, but alluded to this problem

Umm, I'm not surprised your friend is "mum". Secret Service has nothing to do with busting "major transfers of weapons knowingly going to thosuands of felons."

In fact, I'd now have to challenge you to cite one case where we HAVE discovered "major transfers of weapons knowingly going to thosuands of felons". As we say at TFL, Source Please?

Sometimes these "kids" are arrested with expensive sounding weapons

Expensive 'sounding' weapons? Is that like dangerous 'looking' weapons? Name a few and provide the media cites where you saw those expensive "sounding" weapons listed. Source Please?

We don't mind you being way left of center on firearms issues, gvf. But we're not about to pretend that you're arguing from a fact-based, knowledge equipped, "middle-of-the-road" position.

Rich

 

[Eghad]

Some guy wants to have his gun at the bar, he gets his compliant woman to bring it in for him, in her handbag or in her waistband or wherever. She gives it to him inside the establishment, after he has been patted down.

So what if not every guy who might want to bring a gun into the bar has a woman with him who will cooperate and assist him? The fact is, it can be done. And then you'll have a problem, and someone will go, "But we were searching at the door!"

Dont mess with Texas and do that.

They have signs posted that it is illegal for anyone other than those exempted by law to have a firearm in a business establishment that makes 51% of its money from the sales of alcohol. Do that and you will get your lady friend and possibly yourself a ride to the pokey.

Doesnt matter if you were searched at the door or not.

 

[Musketeer]

Don't know how I failed to notice this thread!

Glad we have such dedicated defenders of the 2A around here who are so willing to trade off right to satisfy the "middle." After you guys are done registerring and confiscating the weapons you disaprove of because of a failure to comprehend basic English grammar in the 2A you can start confiscating typewriters...

With friends like these who needs Sarah Brady. Some of these posts remind me of the Kerry pictures from his hunting trip while running for Pres. "I'm pro 2A, really I am. Just ignore all the legislation I sign."

New name for unsupported anti 2A facts thrown out by suspect posters on this board... Troll Spore / Troll Droppings

 

[Rich Lucibella]

Trolling is coming here to intentionally disrupt. I've seen none of that, unless you mean the accusations of trolling when we don't agree with a Member's viewpoint.

If y'all want a Redneck Klubhowse, where we can all back-thump each other on our pure and perfect knowledge of the Constitution while vilifying anyone who demonstrates even moderate disagreement, begone.

gvf has said plenty here that may be argued with. But his posts hardly amount to trolling. Attack the statements, not the person.

OK?
OK?
OK?
Rich

 

[azurefly]

I thought my point was that if someone wanted to start illegal trouble, using a gun, in a place that is screening the males and only the males, the screening process is not going to keep the guns out as it is currently instituted. My angle on the discussion has nothing to do with the legality of having the gun in there -- only to do with whether the screening actually CAN keep 100% of the guns out. Clearly, what was described cannot accomplish that.


-azurefly

 

[Wildalaska]

Glad we have such dedicated defenders of the 2A around here who are so willing to trade off right to satisfy the "middle." After you guys are done registerring and confiscating the weapons you disaprove of because of a failure to comprehend basic English grammar in the 2A you can start confiscating typewriters...

Ah yes, I question the prevailing wisdom...THOUGHT CRIME!

WildgiveitabreakAlaska

 

[azurefly]

I myself have serious doubts about gvf even being a gun owner, an itinerant gun owner, or even a gun rights supporter.

My take on it -- this is MY OWN VIEW, and I'm entitled to it -- is that he is masquerading as someone who believes in gun rights.

I suspect, as I guess Musketeer does, that anyone who would espouse the beliefs and views that gvf did in his thread opener, is not in fact a friend of RKBA, and was stirring the pot to get a discussion going, disingenuously.

Of course I cannot prove that; that's why I said I suspect it.

gvf has been throwing long-discredited arguments at us. It makes it seem like he is not familiar with all that most pro-gunners know discredit them.



-azurefly

 

[Rich Lucibella]

My take on it -- this is MY OWN VIEW, and I'm entitled to it -- is that he is masquerading as someone who believes in gun rights.

You don't get it do you?

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Rich

 

[Kaboom]

The ideal outcome of this is the 13 year old would have been shot on the spot, dirt threw in his face, and life resumed for everybody else. The object lesson wouldn't have been lost.