Some more thoughts on the .357SIG

Tamara,
Go to www.google.com.; go to groups; click on rec; click on rec. guns. In search, do a click on "search in rec.guns only". search on: noise Sig. Below are just two of many posts from the past. I believe that there is a consensus that 357 sig is louder than 40 s&w.
also do a search on: noise car in rec.guns.
Someone recently posted a site that lists gun noise in db. I am trying to remember - I think 357 magnum 125 gr is 166 decibels, 45 acp is 155 decibels. My understanding is that sound intensity doubles every 3 db.
As for what I tout, I use rounds that are effective but quiet. In my 45's, 230 gr ball. In my 9's, 147 gr hollowpoints. In my 32's, ball.
I have also read in the past that bullet weight does make a difference. 125 gr is louder than 158 gr in 357 magnum.
I will not say I understand all the science, just observing what I believe to be a concensus. You probably were not paying attention to noise when you went shooting; and did not do a side by side comparison of .357 sig to 40 s&w.


MatQuig PS: You won't shoot the .357 SIG ammo without ear
# protection, EVER!
#
# I'll second that! At the indoor range where I shoot, occasionally there is
a guy that shoots the .357 SIG. It is just about the loudest gun I can
remember hearing. If you shoot that thing without hearing protection you
will definitely damage your hearing. I use both ear muffs and foam plugs and
that thing he shoots is still loud. My .44 magnum is quieter. Just the noise
level would keep me from buying one of those. I can just imagine what it
would be like having one of those go off in a confined space like a
bedroom.....yeow!

Hawke



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Message 8 in thread
From: Ronald Shin, PhD (rshin21@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Opinions on the .357sig VS 40sw needed
Newsgroups: rec.guns
View this article only
Date: 2001-09-14 07:10:14 PST


nick wrote:
#
# Hey all,
# Im looking at getting a Sig p239.
# In either .357sig or 40sw, as a conceal carry handgun.
# Just wanted to hear recomendations from anyone that
# has shot both. What do you think?

You couldn't go wrong with either. I would strongly urge you, though,
to rent a Sig P239 in either caliber to see if it's to your liking.

# Also, whats the difference in recoil? Or are they about the same?

Overall, the recoil feels about the same. The .40 feels a bit more of a
heavy blunt push, whereas the the 357 Sig feels more of a sharp bite.

Like the others here have said, the 357 Sig is definitely louder. It
operates at a higher pressure (38000 psi max for the 357 Sig, 35000 psi
max for the .40).
 
I have also read in the past that bullet weight does make a difference. 125 gr is louder than 158 gr in 357 magnum.
Click to expand...

That's because typical 125gr .357 Magnum is loaded to higher pressures with faster burning powders to maximize velocity and energy out of 3"-4" barrel defense guns while 158gr loads tend to be loaded to lower pressures with slower burning powders for range/target/small game use out of 6" tubes. Compare 158gr high-pressure Deerstoppers from Georgia Arms to 125gr defense loads and you have a more valid comparison (and little to no difference in noise).

I will not say I understand all the science, just observing what I believe to be a concensus. You probably were not paying attention to noise when you went shooting; and did not do a side by side comparison of .357 sig to 40 s&w.
Click to expand...

You can't get much more side-by-side than having a G27 full of Cor-Bon 135gr and a G33 with Cor-Bon 125gr right in front of you, stopping between shot strings to ask other folks' opinions.

Part of the reason, again, that .357SIG guns seem so loud at the range is that there's really no softball range ammo for this caliber; it's all hot defense-grade-velocity stuff. If you have someone shooting mild American Eagle 180gr .40 ball out of a full-size G22 on one side of you and hot Federal 125gr .357SIG FMJ on the other out of a stubby G33 or P-239, guess which'll sound louder?
 
Viper,

Sounds like you're pretty convinced that the 9MM is in the same league as the .45 ACP. Well, I must be one of the fools you wrote of, because I firmly believe that the 9MM in any configuration is a weak comparison to the .45 ACP. By the way, so does the FBI, and just about every law enforcement armory of which I am aware. I know of numerous law enforcement agencies that have abandoned the 9MM, in fact won't even issue it any longer, in preference to more effective calibers, but not vice versa. If the 9MM rocks your world, fine; just don't foist your views on those of us who know better. The differential of calibers is real and measurable, not just fodder for forum postings.

I'll bet that after you wake up you'll re-evaluate your post and realize I am not a fool.

'til we meetcha again...
E
 
Tamara,
Next time you get a chance, compare 357 sig to some 180 gr. 40S&W and let us know if you think there is any discernable difference. I have standardized on three calibers, and no longer have a 40 much less a 357 sig.
 
I see that...

...some people have found the Magic Sword, Elvis.

Old Russian saying: "Best is enemy of Good Enough". ;)
 
MH,

I have compared 180gr .40 to 125gr .357SIG.

125 gr .357SIG is slightly louder due to the supersonic *crack*. I, however, do not use 180gr .40 for self defense (or even range use now that there's 155gr ball available) due to bullet setback and a general distaste for the round.

Considering that some of my defense handguns are chambered in 10mm and .357/.44 Magnum, and that my preferred loading in .45 is the 185gr +P or 200gr +P, using 180gr .40 because "it was quieter" wouldn't fit my modus operandi very well. :cool:
 
You want LOUD, ....?


... try a 10mm/200gn bullet @ 1250fps from ANY 10mm pistol, with out ear-protection,...NOW THAT'S LOUD! :eek:
 
Tamara,

My fair lady, I wouldn't know a magic sword if I were to cut a cheese cake with one; however, I am astute enough to not cut a wonderfully prepared dessert with a sharp not up to the job. Therefore, and especially where something as valuable as my life is at stake, I know what I should eliminate and what I ought to keep. Regardless of how you slice it (remember, you introduced the metaphor;) ), the 9MM is just not in the same league as the .40 S&W and .45 ACP. If you believe this is true, as I do, would it not guide your defensive handgun selection? Now I'll let you in on top secret info: I almost always carry a Model 60 loaded with 5 158 grain LSWCHP .38 Special rounds. With that written, I do know that there are other calibers far more effective for saving my life :cool:

Another Old Russian saying: Sergi, pass the vodka, will ya?

BTW, is "bullet setback" common with .40 S&W? And if so, why would a 155 grain projectile be less hazardous assuming case volume remains constant due to proportionally increased power charge?


Take care,
E
 
I have heard the reason law enforcement agencies don't like the 9mm is that it will glance off of a windshield instead of going through it. Has anyone else heard this?
 
smoking,

The primary reason the 9MM has fallen from grace is because it has been proven to be less than reliable in doing what it is supposed to. It just ain't the manstopper that many have purported it to be.


Good luck,
Elvis
 
The 40 S&W and 357 Sig are both going to have problems if any setback occurs, as they are high pressure rounds with short cases. Setback is one of those drawbacks to using a semi-auto over a revolver. I do not re-chamber rounds more than once because I am afraid of setback.

I agree with Viper tho, there is no magic bullet. Handgun rounds are relatively weak.
 
MH,

Setback, I don't have no stinkin setback. That's because my carry rounds are fully supported by the powder. Eleven grains in my 40-155 loads and 13.5 grs in my 357-115/125 loads. I would have mentioned the powders used; but, I am restricted from posting that on TFL.

Oh, by the way, thats 1220 fps for the 40 and 1520 and 1420 for the 115 and 125 gr 357 rounds. All out of a 32 Glock with FAC after market 40 bbl.
 
"I have heard the reason law enforcement agencies don't like the 9mm is that it will glance off of a windshield instead of going through it. Has anyone else heard this?"

Back when 115 grain +p+ rounds were all the rage, there were many such observstions in the law enforcement community. As heavier 9mm bullets gained favor similar observations have tapered off for the most part.
 
I've seen it happen.

But then again most pistol calibers, even .45 230 grainers will once in awhile glance off a windshield.

The glass wont pass safety nect time around, but still.

When testing this many moons ago up in Idaho, the nines bounced a lot more than the other calibers we were testing.
The .45 did better than most if the load was spunky.
We didn't test .357 Sig, because that round was brand new on the radar and no one in the area had even heard of it unless you read tha latest issue of guns and blammo.

.357 Magnum did quite well too. But I don't remember the loads we used.
 
I like this thread, you wander from this works to this might to this sucks.

Luckily the 9mm, 357 sig, and 40 all come in 9mm sized firearms, speaking in glock terms as that is what I know. So you can play all you want. With some firearms, glock, you can take a new 40 chambered firearm and drop in the 357 sig barrel from glock. And go on your merry way.

They all have something to offer over the others, and lack something the others offer.

9mm has more rounds per gun size, in glocks the midsize 19 would have 2 more rounds than the 23.

357 is faster than most 9mm +++++ stuff from what I have seen, and same size as 9mm for the bullet itself. Or really close, I don't have my reloading book handy. But you lose a couple bullets in the magazine.

the 40 is a bit bigger bullet in the same size case as 357sig.

Pick one, or pick all. Wander through life happy with your choice. If you are unhappy with your choice, more research is needed.

I am now hooked on the fullsize 10mm glocks. The mama of the 357 sig you might say. :)
 
Loudness: As mentioned above, the 357 Sig seems to only have full power loads on the market, at least at this time. I often shoot mild 357 SIG reloaded ammo at 1040 - 1100 fps that is very mild and a lot quieter than the full power stuff. Shooting 357 Sig ammo that travels over 300 fps slower than full power loads is a real mellow pleasure to shoot. The bottom line is that the 357 SIG can be fairly quiet or very loud, depending on what you shoot through it. Very simple. To say that the 357 SIG is too loud and therefore you don't like it, is a rather limited view, based on some factory ammo that is out at this time. But what will tomorrow bring ;)

40,000 psi rating of 357sig: The 357SIG case can handle up to 45,000 psi without showing any overpressure problems, based on some tests. Some 357sig ammo, like Blazer, actually maxes around 33,000 psi, due to the limitations of the throw-away cases. Folks, there is a lot of flexibility here. Although, I don't recommend going over the max average of 40,000 psi.

Recoil: How much depends on the load and the platform. You might give up some pistol weight which might produce more felt recoil. Or you might pick a slightly heavier pistol like a P229 where even full power 357 Sig ammo feels very tame.

Barrel length: Not just me, but a number of experts like Chuck Karwin, have stated that they are amazed how well the 357 Sig works in short barrels. This caliber is amazingly flexible and powerful from short, to medium, to long barrels with equal finesse.

Flexibility: Basing your answer on just what is available now may be limiting, especially for a new caliber. I've tested light to heavier 357 SIG loads with different weights that show me one thing. The 357 SIG is much more flexible than most people realize. I've shot 357 SIG ammo anywhere from 950 fps to 2200 fps. And all this 357 Sig ammo was the most consistent and showed the lowest standard deviation of any other pistol ammo calibers that I've ever seen.

Bullet setback: Very simple. The 357 SIG can easily be loaded safely. True, ammo companies, at least with certain lots, have been screwing up 357 Sig ammo and causing case ruptures and in some cases, blown guns. That's not the ammo's fault, it's the poor and/or misunderstood quality control standards of the ammo companies. In fact, ammo companies have to get this aspect in control with the 357 Sig, to build up customer confidence.

Bullet setback with the little 357 Sig neck is simple to resolve. Use very little if any belling of the mouth; squeeze the bullet in tight; give it the proper crimp for the type of bullet being used. And using a simple sealent/glue, or light cannelure groove, and/or especially using the proper powder that fills the case, holding the bullet up with some powder compression while maintaining proper PSI, all but makes 357 SIG bullet setback a moot point. I've done a fair amount of testing in this area. More info can be found at http://petej55.home.mindspring.com

Reliability: For the 357 Sig user to be happy and take full advantage of this nifty little bottleneck cartridge, you must make sure the magazine, pistol, and cartridge work in harmony with each other. For example, using an incorrect magazine not engineered for the bottlenecked 357 Sig, can cause the cartridge to nosedive and cause jams. If the basics are followed, then ramming a 9mm bullet into a 10mm chamber opening only adds another level of feeding performance.

Accuracy: Not even necessary to defend the accuracy of the 357 Sig.

Comparisons: Can be difficult since all the top defense rounds have at least a few loads that work well. For example, the 357 SIG can definitely push a heavier 147 - 150 grain bullet much harder and faster than a 9mm pistol of equal barrel length, period.

Popularity: The 357sig certianly never took off wildly like the .40 did. Yet, it continues to slowly gain converts in the private sector and with agencies. It appears that once some of the larger or more famous agencies switch to the 357sig, then smaller agencies follow suit. For example, it's all but impossible to buy a P229 in 357sig caliber right now because all production is going to the Federal Government, to the the Federal Air Marshals, etc.

Bottom line: The naysayers from 1994 when the 357 Sig came out, so far have been quite wrong, and are becoming more wrong monthly ;)

That is all. I am not here to argue. I am just the voice of what could be when the young 357 SIG matures. Have fun, train well with whatever self defense caliber you choose, and be safe :cool:
 
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