Some more thoughts on the .357SIG

G

George Hill

Staff Alumnus
In a gun rag I was thumbing through I read that Massad Ayoob gives a big thumbs up on the .357SIG cartridge.
He goes over how he was talking with some homies in the Richmond, Virginia PD... the PD guys told him they have had GREAT results with the cartridge and have had 100% One Shot Stops that gave INSTANT incapacitation.
Hey, that's cool... but there is a problem. The problem is that Richmond PD has only had 7 shootings with the .357SIG caliber autos. The weather is quite often sultry in Richmond and the clothes are often light for most of the year. I'd like to see this survey from an area where it is a bit colder and the clothes are heavier... Like say, Madison or Milwaukee Wisconsin. Well, how about Rhinelander Wisconsin, one of my old haunts (for a short and very cold) period of time. Of course there you would only be shooting at the Hodag.
7 is not enough to get me to change my mind about chamberings for my auto pistols. The .357 SIG is simply another fast 9MM cartridge. Same as 9X23mm, or 9mm Magnum... Is one Fast Nine really any better than another Fast Nine? I don't think so... But .357SIG does have an advantage... being a "Bottle Necked" cartridge it has a much easier time feeding into the chamber. This means it has a natural tendency to be a more reliable feeding cartridge.
The numbers on the .357SIG are generally around 1350 FPS with a 127 grain load. Hell yeah, that's not bad. Not bad at all for a 9mm. I'd rather not get hit with that myself. However why carry that - if I can carry the same gun chambered for .40? Let me fill you in on something... Cor-Bon and Triton both make .40 loads with a 135 grain .40 caliber slug moving at the same 1350 speed. So this .40 slug is going the same speed... but has a bigger frontal area and is heavier. You do the math and tell me which load is better. Or you can try to tell me that because the SIG cartridge has .357 in the name it is some how imbued with magic powers?
 
The 124-grain .357 SIG has ballistic data very similar to the 125-grain .357 Magnum, the gold standard by which all are compared. The Triton and Cor-Bon loads do not. It is all personal preference anyway. (Unless your gun and caliber is chosen for you by bean counters.)
 
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Of course the .40 loads I mentioned do not... they do BETTER.
A heavier and fatter bullet that is moving at the same speed = Better.

At least that is My Prefrence.
 
Yeah, I gotta agree.

If a 125gr bullet at 1350 is the bee's knees, I can't see how a bullet that is .045" larger in diameter, moving at the same speed, weighing 10 grains more, with more energy, is going to do any worse.

Of course, in the same weapon, the .357SIG will have less recoil, but that's about the only advantage I can see.

Well, that and the fact that fast-moving 135gr .400" bullets are at the ragged edge of their performance envelope and tend to fragment some (this is why 135gr 10mm is only loaded to 1400fps or so).

Of course, the 125gr Remington SJHP that M&S are so adamant about is known for fragmentation itself, while the modern bonded .357SIGs like the Gold Dot aren't. In that light, the 135gr .40/10mm is closer to the M&S .357 Mag ideal than the .357SIG.
 
I won't argue which is better and I didn't, I only made a couple of observations. It still boils down to personal preference.
 
Anyone who thinks a 357 Sig is a weak sister to anyone has never fired one. What do I mean? In my Glock 27, with a 357 Sig barrel, this cartridge kicks, roars, and spouts fire. It's recoil is akin to a 44 Mag and it is a blast to shoot. If you have the opinion that I like this cartridge you are dead on! Regards, Richard
 
Richard I am sure YOUR .357SIG powered, minibarreled Glock 27 is the most ferocious thing. Ever.

It also loses a great deal more velocity because of that shorter tube. That big snarly muzzle blast is the extra energy blooming out and NOT pushing the bullet.
Are you breaking 1300 FPS? I don't know... but I'd guess your right around that... maybe just shy of it. Who knows? Get a Chrony and check it out. The Magnum round out of the revolver is 1400. You could be down in the 12's even. According to the article, the Sig round matched the magnum out of a short barreled roundgun. And that was with a standard sized auto. Now, if your using a short barred auto... Your not like a Magnum... Your more like a 9MM+P+ maybe. But hey - don't let me cast doubt on your Sword of Power... It's da bomb.

And I never said .357SIG was a Weak Sister. That would be in this case a 9mm. What I am saying though is that the .357SIG round while "Popular" is still, according to Massad's article, doesnt have enough water under the keel... and the .40 can do the same or better with the right loads.

:p
 
But........if it doesn't float your boat, so what? It floats mine. It's noticeably more accurate than my .40 barrels, it's easier to shoot than the .357 magnum and offers whatever tactical advantages of an auto (real or imagined), and it's designed as a penetrator, so I'm sure it will punch through big downy winter vests as easily as T-shirts. Isn't there also a mention in that same article that some loads in .357 Sig actually EXCEED the .357 mag in similar barrel lengths (like, a P226 versus a 4-inch revolver?) I know Guns & Ammo did a chrony test that came up with those exact results, I'll try to dig it up. The 135 grain .40 sounds like a great load (I was actually defending it on another post) but do you know of more than seven shootings recorded with it, George?

What exactly are we trying to accomplish with these discussions? If you don't like the .357 Sig, DON'T BUY IT. If you like it, BUY IT, and shut up (including myself). The .357 Sig seems to flat out work. So does the 40. So does the +P 9mm. So does the .45, blah, blah, blah. Buy what you like, and learn how to shoot. The pros and cons of each have been beaten to death on these boards.
 
MKII:
What exactly are we trying to accomplish with these discussions? If you don't like the .357 Sig, DON'T BUY IT. If you like it, BUY IT, and shut up (including myself). The .357 Sig seems to flat out work. So does the 40. So does the +P 9mm. So does the .45, blah, blah, blah. Buy what you like, and learn how to shoot. The pros and cons of each have been beaten to death on these boards.
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AMEN!
Get a quality weapon in a decent caliber with a good load. Then the rest is up to you, not the bullet.
 
Ah, the ol' "Magic Sword" discussion...

...wherein some folks get so obsessed with finding "the best" that they frequently overlook "plenty darn good enough".

But first, a myth to dispel:

Model 60, 2 1/8" tube, 125gr Golden Saber .357 mag: 1165fps/377fpe.
Glock 33, 125gr Remington .357SIG: 1272fps/449fpe.
Glock 26, 124gr Golden Saber 9mm +P: 1137fps/356fpe.

Discuss. ;)
 
George,

I vote for that "magic" thing that you said... ;)

Seriously though, I respect Ayoob, and agree with most of what he says, but I think that he never met a gun he didn't like.

Not if he's being paid to write about it anyway.
(Then again, if I got paid to shoot guns, and write about them, I'd be happier than a pig in a waller.)
 
Which caliber?

Hah!, i have a H&K compact in 357sig. Fine gun, good cartridge.

Barstow, makes barrels for the compact, at 5.5 inchs it ought to add maybe 100 - 150 fps to existing factory specs. Pro load % Speer Gold Dot are running at 1450fps.

I still prefer 45acp, but 357sig great alternative.

12-34hom.
 
Steve Smith,

Actually, Cor-Bon 165gr 10mm does about 1165fps on average from G29's, IME.

But, yes, I like my G29. :cool: In the time since I picked up my 29, I've gone through 2 33's. I'm sure I'll get another G33, but my G29 is going nowhere.
 
In my HK compact:

the felt recoil of the .357 Sig is harder but the .40 tries to flip alot more. Also the .40 will lay the brass in a nice little pile and the .357 sigs are scattered to the four corners.

I have noticed all of this with many different types of FMJ ammo
 
...being a "Bottle Necked" cartridge it has a much easier time feeding into the chamber. This means it has a natural tendency to be a more reliable feeding cartridge.
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This is exactly why I prefer .357SIG over .40 for a SD gun. Because the two are probably pretty close in terms of stopping ability, I'll take the one that can help ensure I won't have failures when I need my gun the most. The fact that it matches or exceeds the performance of a .357mag is another plus.
 
I would think any feeding reliability advantage the 357 Sig might have is more imagined than real. There are also some negative reliability issues associated with the 357 Sig and its bottle-necked design--including the need to "head-space" on both the shoulder and the case mouth, and some issues associated with its very shot neck (both of which may be more imagined than real as well). Bottom-line, I wouldn't count on it being more (or less) reliable than any other quality ammunition in a quality weapon.

I think when it comes to the 357 Sig, it's just a matter of "what floats your boat." It does nothing the 9x19 or .40 S&W doesn't do, and it has no significant incease in effectiveness over the 9x19 or the .40 S&W, and it gives up capacity to the 9x19. To me, it's rather expensive (but that's getting better) answer to a non-problem (except possibly for Sig which was a little late into .40 S&W market, and it has allowed them to reclaim/maintain some LE marketing share).

In light of the Richmond PD remarks, I think the original quote from the Richmond PD was. ""In seven shootings, almost every suspect our people have shot with the .357SIG has been an instant incapacitation." The CHP gave a similar (but even stronger) endorsement to the 180-grain .40 S&W (over the .357 Magnum, no less!) when they first adopted it.

The 357 Sig is, “Not a great or lousy cartridge, just another choice.” So, whatever floats your boat . . .
 
George Hill,

No, it doesn't exceed the Magnum's performance...
It just comes close to it.
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The 125gr .357SIG out of a pocket-size G33 or P-239 exceeds any factory 125gr .357 Magnum load out of a 2.5" J/K-frame revolver.

Out of a mid-size G23, P-229 or USP, it equals or exceeds 125gr .357 Mag out of a comparably-sized 3" or 4" wheelgun.

Just thought I should clear that up.
 
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