Some Medieval Thoughts On Close Quarters And Firearms

There was atleast 1 bayonet kill in Iraq by a Marine clearing a house and 1 Kabar kill in A marsh in I think Southers Iraq by a U.S Marine . A Soldier in the U.S Army Big Red 1 killed a insurgent with a Gerber multi tool while house clearing in I think it was Anbar Province after a long hand to hand fight .
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I personally know a former Ranger that killed a badguy in Afghanistan with a double edged dagger of some sort (think it was a gerber or coldsteel, but can't remember) when he got wrapped up with him while clearing a house and could not bring his rifle into play. It was an unpleasent experience for the guy and he had some issues over it still last time I talked to him.

He was totally convinced that it was impossible to use a handgun at grappling range until I showed him some of the shiv works curriculum.
 
Just remember everyone that knives are just as lethal as hand guns. Don't count them out; one is not a substitution for the other. But keep in mind that only two things happen in a knife fight: one person leaves in an ambulance and the other in a body bag.
 
This is silly.
People do train for close quarters combat with handguns.
There's less of a need for it because - unlike a sword - you don't have to be within grappling distance to effectively use a gun.
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That kind of thinking is unwise. Unless you are carrying something ridiculous, you are likely to have to shoot someone several times with a handgun in order to immobilize them, and by that time unless they were running at you from across a football field they will be pretty close to you. Also I would imagine people coming up and arguing with you without an apparent attempt to attack, and having it escalate while they are already within knifing distance.
 
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In my opinion . Hollow points that transfer energy on impact will get a agressor off of you quick . I train from point blank out to 50 yards with a handgun ( Ruger p89 9mm and Ruger black hawk .357 Mag ) . I also train with a knife just in case ( Issue Ka-bar and Cold Steel Bowie CRKT folder M16 ) . With a handgun at grappling range as you draw and raise I target the Liver then Heart by then you should be able to step back and target anywhere from the upper lip to between the eyebrows . If needed then just go for center mass but training gives you somthing to fall back on and not panic so you can make those decisions . .
 
With a handgun at grappling range as you draw and raise I target the Liver then Heart by then you should be able to step back and target anywhere from the upper lip to between the eyebrows
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Current training for using a pistol (or any weapon including the defender's own knife if it is more accessible) at grappling range involves entangling the subjects weapons arm or attaining a position that keeps you from getting stabbed before accessing your weapon.

You can kind of get the idea from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeX1PyKKuYk
 
The weapon is as good as the person using it. A unskilled person with a handgun is not going to be as effective as a person skilled with a sword, at a range of 25 feet or less. There are people who through discipline and practice are more dangerous with a blade than many are with a gun.

As to what the OP is saying about wrestling being a part of Western Martial arts and swordsmanship..he is right. In the last 20 years or so many military manuals from the middle ages have been found in various European countries buried in libraries. Somewhere I have a translated version of the French voulge in PDF from the 14th or 15th century. With drawings and explanations. The trained man was supposed to be able to engage targets in front of him and behind him. That is not Hollywood, that was what was expected of a infantryman wielding a voulge.

The OP stated he was training in German Longsword. My hats off to him. That is a difficult art to master, and is something I would like to get involved in one day. Lots off upper body strength and endurance is required for that.

As far as utilizing swordsmanship into a bowie knife...ahhh..not so much. Different stances, approaches, and dynamics. No weapon is obsolete, only our perception.
 
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Natekirk is right! The impact from a 9mm is equal to holding a 10 pound weight about 5 inches from your open palm and dropping it. In many cases with handguns, the attacker has to be shot multiple times to stop, even with big bore handguns people don't just stop when shot. That is why handguns are considered personal defense weapons. They are to just stop an attack, and in reality have a low mortality rate. Something like 6-8%.
 
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Spent more time over the years in hand-to-hand than I have engaging with firearms...
and that's after many years of SASS, IDPA, GSSF, & IPSC competition...
chances of using my firearms, low...
chances I'll jack someone's jaw, fairly high...

Upside, with over a dozen years of working as a bouncer & bartender,
pretty darn good at crowd control...and LOTS of practice with multiple assailants :)


That's the thing about options...you either have 'em, or you don't.
If the only tool in your toolbox is a gun, better have a VERY good lawyer on speed-dial.
While Maiming by hand is usually only a misdemeanor...lawyer helpful, but not usually required :D

Another great thing about having martial skills, you get Levels of Damage to choose from.
You can go from Control maneuvers to Lethal in an instant...your choice...
also the choice of the situation...how many attackers, how big, how skilled...
all the factors weigh in on how nasty you can legally be.

The Other factor, how well you can make Lethal look like a total accident??
think about that for a minute. Really think about that.
You can be an over-muscled Operator...but how well is that going to play in court??
On the other hand, if you come off like Clark Griswold, (eternally stupid golden retriever)
chances are the local constabulary lets you walk out free...and thinks you got lucky in the fight ;)
That's the angle you really want...no muss, no fuss.

Why do I say that??
Had a few issues with "Excessive Force" early in my life...until rethinking the angles...
let some chunk cover the muscle, but kept lifting...far better to look like a softy and not be one...
so you carry an extra 20-30 pounds...no big deal when you are 6'3/250...
just don't let it get out of control!

Then got heavily into Aikido, an Art that has Options...from Nice to Nasty in a blink.
Great thing about Aikido, you can make it look like the other guy was clumsy as heck
and practically beat himself senseless trying to hurt you...all you did was get out of the way!!

Now, you look like "A Lover, not a fighter", and the witnesses all say you were just dodging the attacking butthead.
If the butthead happened to misdirect himself headfirst into a concrete curb and dies...oh well.
It sure ain't "George Costanza's Fault"...chunky guy that trips over his own feet...
that's what you want to project for the LEOs & DA's...
Chances of court action?? Low. THAT is the best outcome :cool:

Tools. Toolbox. Have some options for a less than lethal response, or lethal without a weapon.
Best thing, is NOBODY believing you are capable of doing heinous damage except by ACCIDENT!!

Didn't you guys watch Columbo when you were kids?? :rolleyes:
 
Big Shrek,

I love Aikido. Been doing it for years and get to use it from time to time on the job. However I would never reccomend it to someone that does not already have some experience at real fighting first.
 
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