Some Medieval Thoughts On Close Quarters And Firearms

[44 AMP]

one of the shows I liked to watch (Justified) last season had a character very enamored of a big knife. Several times during the season he mentioned the ?21 foot rule", and was clearly looking to prove it himself.

During one of the final episodes, he confronts the hero, who essentially, lets him try it. In a tragically humorous twist, as the knife guy rushes the hero, he falls into a hole (that he himself had just dug to bury his dog), and falls on his own knife. (it is dark, but....) end of stupid bad guy, hero didn't even have to draw...

When it comes to sword fighting, what we see on tv and in the movies is almost never sword fighting. Its dramatic swordplay, but not fighting the way it was really done. Dances with Swords.

Real swordfighting isn't like the movies, its not like fencing, or any kind of dueling, its a "kill the other guy" style that uses both ends of the sword, feet, fists, and anything else available. And, its often over very quickly. A single blow usually ends it, and unless both are very evenly matched, that single blow might be the only one struck. Of course, this isn't very entertaining to the audience, so in theater, adversaries bang swords together and dance around the room for a while before its over.

GO shopping in the right places and you can find theatrical swords, these look right at a glance, but have extra thick tangs, and sometimes blades (unsharpened, of course) to stand up to repeated banging against other swords and things, night after night on stage...

As has been said, the best swordsman in the land does not fear the second best swordsman, he fears the novice....because he knows what the second best swordsman will do...

 

[seeker_two]

Another good thing about folding knives.....much easier to conceal in a closed hand when walking to your car....and much faster to deploy than drawing a holstered gun.

 

[jeager106]

Quote:

Another good thing about folding knives.....much easier to conceal in a closed hand when walking to your car....and much faster to deploy than drawing a holstered gun.


Much less effective than a handgun, less range and you really, really, need to know how to effectively use a knife for defense.

 

[dayman]

To clarify, I wasn't implying that one shouldn't be proficient at unarmed or armed cqc.

I was disagreeing with the notion that a sword or knife is in any way superior to a gun.
These threads come up front time to time and generally ignore the fact that - while blades are certainly dangerous - every scenario you can dream up where you come out on top with a knife would be even easier with a gun.

The 21' guy already has his knife out right?
No fun at all, but still preferable to him having a drawn gun.

I do carry a little pocket knife, but it's there to take care of difficult to open packages, and a pieces of knotted string rather than "goblins".

Admittedly my ideas may change as I age, but I'm fairly comfortable defending myself with just the weapons the good Lord and "momma dayman" gave me if for some reason I can't use my gun.
And I can draw my gun in less time than it would take me to fish around in my pocket for a knife and open it anyway.

But that all drifts away from the OP and for that I apologize. I do agree that cqc with a gun is something that should be trained more.
The last day class I went to we worked on incorporating a "get off me" push into our draw stroke, and shooting from retention.
So the training is out there if you look for it.

 

[Koda94]

Quote:
This got me thinking about how few modern shooting methods incorporate wrestling into their techniques.

The way I see it, the whole point of having a gun is so you DON"T have to resort to physical combat.

the problem with that is just having a gun doesn't mean you WON'T have to resort for physical combat. A gun is a distance weapon, most attacks happen in close range. There are countless ways to do it, what happens if your disarmed by your attacker?

But just as the sword is a lever, the handgun is a heavy weight that can be used to beat someone. And the rifle is a spear. But I'm not aware of any modern system where shooting from a stance flows into wrestling, as sword strikes flowed into ringen. Anyone heard of any?

I'm no expert but it seems its close quarters shooting, if it flows into actual wrestling wouldn't it be best to drop the pistol?

 

[jeager106]

Quote:
I'm no expert but it seems its close quarters shooting, if it flows into actual wrestling wouldn't it be best to drop the pistol?

You're right. You're not an expert. Dropping the handgun is a very, very, bad
idea.
If you have the handgun in your hand then there must, by defintion, have been some reason to demonstrate your intention to use deadly force.
That said....how in the world would you end up "wrestling" with your threat????

This thread is getting way out there.

 

[Koda94]

Quote:
I'm no expert but it seems its close quarters shooting, if it flows into actual wrestling wouldn't it be best to drop the pistol?

You're right. You're not an expert. Dropping the handgun is a very, very, bad
idea.
If you have the handgun in your hand then there must, by defintion, have been some reason to demonstrate your intention to use deadly force.
That said....how in the world would you end up "wrestling" with your threat????

This thread is getting way out there.

I don't think you understood my comment at all. I wasn't giving any advice....

 

[jeager106]

No advice but you asked the question "wouldn't it be best to drop the pistol?"
I responded to the question.
Don't take offense where none was meant.
It's the internet don'cha'know.
I can't pathom a situation where it's best to drop your weapon to wrestle.
..and this thread is getting way out there.
I don't midevil sword play either so perhaps I just don't "get it"?
It's also unlikely I'll ever need to know when to drop my weapon, whatever it may be, to wrestle.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Semper Fi

"You haven't met any Marines lately have you. (LOL) Do any of you retired jar heads still have your swords?"

Heh. I still have my sword - mounted on the wall.

I've actually seen live sword demonstrations on Okinawa that convinced me that a swordsman is not necessarily outgunned at all in modern times. The big issue is that in virtually no daily situations I can think of is a private citizen going to be justified in walking around carrying a sword.

As a tactical instructor for law enforcement officers, I can relate to jaeger106's post - there are countless situations that cops get into which don't allow time to draw a weapon. (They often don't allow time to draw a sword either.) It's a matter of grappling or wrestling around until the officer(s) has/have the opportunity to get the advantage.

Citizens who arm themselves should be in decent physical condition, and ought to understand at least the basics of strikes and blocks, but I agree that for the average citizen there will be a practical limit as to how much equipment you're going to be carrying around with you on a daily basis. A folding pocketknife and a handgun would be a baseline, I'd think for most of us, but probably not a sword or a bowie knife for most situations.

The one lesson I've learned from the instructing I participated in was how easily an officer could lose their primary firearm - trip in a parking lot and watch it slide beneath a parked car, fall from an elevated position like a loading dock, climbing a ladder and encountering resistance, etc. I may not always carry a couple spare magazines, but I'll always carry a second gun...even if its just an Airweight J-frame or a Tomcat. I've seen too many situations where the fastest reload/recovery was a second gun.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Koda94]

no offense taken....

the way I understood the original question wasn't if you should drop your weapon in order to wrestle, but that your opponent had already taken hold of you. IOW, you either didn't draw fast enough or you missed....

 

[jeager106]

The op was talking about the midevil German sword which was an extremely loooooong weapon, much longer than most folks think a sword should be.
Now put the sword out of your head. You don't carry a sword for self defense.
I doubt this forum called The FIRING Line ever was intended to discuss carrying the midevil German loooooong sword for self defense.
Now that's cleared up why would you ever drop your handgun if an attacker somehow got hands on you?
If the attacker is unarmed why did you draw a firearm?
If the attacker has a knife & you let him get hands on you then you are already sliced up.
I don't see any point to this argument at all.
I'll simply say, and this IS advice, don't drop your weapon, ever.
O.K.?

 

[44 AMP]

Lanyards, saber knots, retaining straps and saddle rings are not in vogue today, but do still exist, and serve the same tactical purpose they always did. They are the original weapon retention system, useful afoot or ahorse.

You may not be able to retain your weapon in your grip, but a lanyard retains your weapon within your reach. (yes, sometimes they break, nothing is failure proof)

If the attacker is unarmed why did you draw a firearm?

You draw against an (visibly) unarmed opponent for the same reasons you do against an armed one, imminent threat, and disparity of force.

More than a few of us are in that category were a fight could be fatal. Even a single blow, under the right circumstances could be it. Certainly some teenage punk with the physical size of an NFL halfback, trying to pound my head into the pavement qualifies in my judgment as a lethal risk.

Disparity of force. Its just that simple for many of us. Now, if you're still in the prime of life, have martial arts training, and have previously thought things through about what you would do, when (as evidenced by your internet posts) there could be some questions asked about why you drew and shot that punk who was only "playing a game" (beatdown game?)

On the other hand, if you are social security age, and have medical conditions to boot, the disparity of force is much clearer for the average person to grasp.

as to the loooong sword, it has its uses. Useful when your opponent is beyond short sword reach. Mounted opponents, fighting in/against pike formations, and reaching over the bulwark of ships locked together in boarding actions come to mind easily.

 

[seeker_two]

Quote:

Another good thing about folding knives.....much easier to conceal in a closed hand when walking to your car....and much faster to deploy than drawing a holstered gun.


Much less effective than a handgun, less range and you really, really, need to know how to effectively use a knife for defense.

Effective enough to change a BG's mind, more range than you think, and yes I do....

 

[Mainah]

I was a professional line cook for over a decade, my average shift was nine hours and I spent at least five of them working with a knife. And I do all the cooking at home, spend at least an hour a week chopping and slicing. That's a lot of muscle memory. I have a couple of folders that I've vetted and I trust their integrity as much as most of the fixed blades that I own. They sure aren't all created equal, but some locking mechanisms are quite reliable.

 

[MoBart]

I agree 100% that haveing hand to hand or, close combat, capabilities is very important. In the Marine Corps we learned how to use the rifle as a serious impact weapon with the butt stroke and how to retain control with a finger grab and rotate. But the most important thing we learned in my opinion is the use of a bayonet. Mounted to the rifle you gain lethal advantage from contact to 500 yards distance. Unmounted it's a lethal weapon at hand to hand distance. Wrestling and ground fighting should seem basic but haveing some practice and training is needed to sharpen or retain skills in this just like shooting. I'm not a big handgun fan but haveing a solid revolver adds the grip frame and grips into the impact weapon arena pretty well. They are solid and have enough mass to be pretty effective but I would assume they would still be functional after such an impact. I don't know how well the magazine base plate of most pistols would withstand the same impact but that's another reason to always carry spare mags.

 

[Jeff #111]

I'm always worried that one day we might find ourselves having to deal with some suspect who is carrying (and is skilled) a sword or a fighting spear or some other type of weapon. As a police officer I am usually well within 21 feet of people. Kitchen knives, screwdrivers, forks, hammers, broken compact discs, chains, steel toed working boots, bottles, heavy glass ashtrays and so on. Our pistols are just one of many things that we carry. Pepper spray, a good old fashioned hardwood straight-stick or asp (I carry a straight-stick), Taser, folding knife, my brain and so on. Am I some type of Grand Weapons Master? Nope.

I mostly focus on being aware of my surroundings and if I'm the primary officer trust that my cover officer(s) is paying attention. I'm busy writing notes and running driver licenses with dispatch. That's reality.

One thing I have done in the past few years is dump about seventy pounds. Went down from 255 to 185 and lost eight inches around my waistline. I'm healthier and more fit and I just look better in my uniform. I've noticed that since I did this (and I've stayed at 185) I get a whole lot less attitude from the pukes and I don't get in as many hands on situations as I used to. They aren't as willing to take me on. A little while ago I found a team photo taken in 2010. Wow. If I was a puke I would have been willing to take me on back then as well.

I'm also not as quick to anger anymore. I'm speculating, but I wonder if all that weight had an effect on me as well.

Anyway much about combat is tactics and being aware. Nothing new there. Just my personal experience.

 

[psalm7]

I just bought a Cold Steel Bowie Machette it makes a great short sword . I' m putting it on one of my LC2 load bearing sets .

 

[GM1967]

I think the last US fixed bayonet charge was during WWII. Possibly there have been some others since, small actions somewhere.

Last US Army bayonet charge was in Korea. Lewis Lee Millett Sr. (December 15, 1920 – November 14, 2009) was a United States Army officer who received the Medal of Honor during the Korean War for leading the last major American bayonet charge. They won that battle.

I like swords, but they aren't practical defensive weapons any longer. That doesn't mean that a good sword can't be a fearsome weapon even today, even against a gun at close range.

Unfortunately, most swords available today are really only stainless-steel sword-like objects....wall hangers, made of stainless steel (stainless steel makes great knives, but lousy swords, too brittle when longer than 12 inches or so, dangerous to the user and bystanders). But if you look, you can find real swords for sale today. If interested, look for Albion Swords, Cold Steel, or something like a Paul Chen Practical Katana.

Knives, machetes, and "bush swords" can still be viable practical weapons today, but should always take second place to a gun

 

[psalm7]

There was atleast 1 bayonet kill in Iraq by a Marine clearing a house and 1 Kabar kill in A marsh in I think Southers Iraq by a U.S Marine . A Soldier in the U.S Army Big Red 1 killed a insurgent with a Gerber multi tool while house clearing in I think it was Anbar Province after a long hand to hand fight .

 

[sigxder]

Violence comes very fast and often is final. Lots of gun folks want to see everything as a "gun solution". Makes life easier in the world of fantasy. Truth is as fast as someone can be on you (think Tueller drill) you better have some empty hand skills. CCW'ed weapons especially have to be drawn from concealment.
You may very well have to fight to get to your gun. You don't have to be an MMA fighter. But you really should get at least a foundation in H2H Combat. Most everyone that carries a gun other than civilians gets some H2H. Rather Police Survival or Military all get some level of H2H. If guns are a part of your everyday lifestyle. You should at least be able to buy you some time with H2H so you can get to your gun. Just think of it as insurance.