Sobriety Checkpoints....

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I'd rather have a risk here and there than a police state. Its disgusting.

How about we get rid of Federal safety standards for the airlines? With all that mandated maintenance made optional, you as a passenger, and the airlines' stockholders could realize quite a savings. After all, far fewer people are killed every year in airliner accidents, even with drunk pilots. Don't the airlines have the right to make as much money as possible? Why should the federal government be allowed to mandate safety standards an insert themselves into the industry with warrantless inspections?
 
Lets apply that logic to DWI checkpoints.

The supreme court already has....they said that the public's interest in not being killed by drunk drivers is valid due, in part, to the large number of drunk drivers out there on a daily basis and that makes the momentary incovenience of being seized by the government at an alchohol checkpoint "reasonable" and therefore compliant with the 4th amendment.
 
As you sit there in your car with the window rolled up, staring straight ahead and ignoring the the professional and courteous officer?
I said it's cracked, to the point where I can hear the officer and the officer can hear me, so that I may comply with his courteous instructions. What is it about a partially lowered window that offends the law or law enforcement, especially when it's a common caution considering impersonators in the midst?

We're really verging on being in love with one's own authority here, i.e. power tripping...
 
I said it's cracked, to the point where I can hear the officer and the officer can hear me, so that I may comply with his courteous instructions. What is it about a partially lowered window that offends the law or law enforcement, especially when it's a common caution considering impersonators in the midst

I believe the argument ensued when I contended that you do NOT satisfy the requirements of the stop merely by providing your license, and that on a legal traffic stop, the officer can require you to get out of your car, and that if someone REFUSED a lawful order (by me) to get out of the car, I would take measures up to, and including, breaking their window to get them out. If I tell them to get out, and they get out, they drive home with an intact window. No power trip here, just taking care of business. A traffic stop is no time to play Emily Post with someone who is refusing to do what you tell them to do. Any time I've ever heard "experts" talk about what to do if you suspect the person pulling you over is no the police, they tell you to drive to a well-lit public place, if not the nearest police station. I've never heard them say anything about handing their license over through a little crack in the window or refusing to get out of the car when ordered to by a police officer.
 
Frank asked:
The landmark case for alcohol checkpoints was Michigan State Police V. Sitz. Also applicable are Brown V. Texas, Delaware V. Prouse, US V. Martinez-Fuerte, and US V. Ortiz. Can you please cut and paste the ruling that says sobriety checks only affect LICENSED drivers and their REGISTERED vehicles?
Um, Frank? You did read that little thing that I wrote about Drivers Licenses and their history?

Unless you want me to post the complete essay I wrote (and researched), suffice it to say that all the rulings you cited are based solely upon the U.S. D.O.T. Uniform Vehicle Code as incorporated into every states Motor Vehicle Statutes. Thus it is commercial code we (and the Supreme Court) are talking about. Anyone who has applied for and received a states drivers license is bound by those codes. Those who drive without being licensed (and subsequently gone to court several times to insure their right to drive... Yes Frank, it is a right) are not bound by the commercial codes but rather common law and what the Courts have determined "reasonable regulation" which does not include most of the stuff the rest of us are bound by. Oh, what the Courts have found is that "reasonable regulations" are nothing more than simple traffic regulations, not the complex set of laws that License holders are bound to.

Do I have to prove that the Freedom to Travel is a basic and inalienable right?
 
Frank, you're brdering on speciousness here. Here's my post regarding the "cracked window" thing...

Originally posted by Romulus, bla, bla: "I can hide anything I want as long as it isn't somewhere on the criminal statutes. If I crack the window I can still answer any question that's addressed to me. If the officer asks me to exit the car for a field-sobriety test, I will hear that command and comply."

What in blazes are you on about?
 
IN any Profession there are those that are bad examples of respective Profession. The butcher , the baker , the candlestick maker...

Egos, over stepping powers, "better than the next person because...".

Yes we have folks that Drive Drunk, erratic, high on dope, suspended / revoked licenses. We also have folks that run around on spouses, have affairs, abuse kids, steal from the business...

I hope society is not - ever gets were panty checks of little kids and raids on one's office,or the corner hotel ever come about...I mean " there could be a law being broken here..."

The concerns of "pass enough laws and everyone will be guilty of something" bother me. Gov't meddlin' , Re-interpretation of my rights bother me. Abuse of Authority bothers me - especially in the guise of War on "[]" , Drunk Drivers, Vehicle inspections, ...

What one does or does not do is none of my business - Nor is it anyone else's. On a public highway, where I and others are sharing a property by privilidege, many times a person - John Q. Public - has pulled over to a pay phone, called the Local LEO and gave a description of someone driving erractic, or seen knee walking drunk leaving a bar or liquor store, and get behind the wheel to drive.

John Q. Public did this before cell phones. John Q Public knew the Cop walking the beat. Mutual respect was earned, appreciated and cherished.

That is being responsible to one's self and others on a public highway. Just as if one were to see the news on a fugitive and see said fugitive and call it in.

No invasion of property , no roadblocks. The Public ain't all stupid.

Here in AR ( as did other states) we had the Blue Light Rapist. Folks got really concerned about them blue lights 'symbol of authority one could trust' - just went out the window.

Think of your 18 y/o daughter ...your wife, your sister...blue lights and well...

Here the State Police and other LEOs understood, accepted some folks just are NOT going to trust a LEO officer. That trust had been tainted.

Hit the flashers, maintain a safe speed and pull over to the nearest, safest, lighted, and public place. Crack the window just enough to speak to officer, to see a ID and to exchange license, registration and CCW ( required here). Unmarked State cars have on passenger door the State Police emblem, officer on the freeway pulls along drivers side so driver can see, then officer can pull back behind driver.

Did this cause a bit of a hassle? Sure. Did the driving public appreciate being respected and the concerns addressed? Yes. Did the State and other LEO agencies gain some respect and positive feedback? Yes.

Communication is the key. Respect is earned - makes no difference if a butcher, a baker ,or a candlestick maker. We all appreciate our rights being respected.
 
Any time I've ever heard "experts" talk about what to do if you suspect the person pulling you over is no the police, they tell you to drive to a well-lit public place, if not the nearest police station. I've never heard them say anything about handing their license over through a little crack in the window or refusing to get out of the car when ordered to by a police officer.

here's a link

Also, when the spate of officer impersonations and phony traffic stops were taking place in Colorado, the reminder on the boob tube news was constant. No reason why you shouldn't deal with a cracked window. Or would you fly into a psychotic rage like that Wyoming state trooper instead...
 
What in blazes are you on about?

The post I responded to and my response:

One thing you COULD do in such a stop is to not roll down your window further than necessary to slide license and registration out. I don't know what the law is on that, but you've satisfied the stop requirement without actually presenting anything to search aside from what is could be seen at any time, and you're speech. At that point the cop would have to establish probable cause to demand more.


Not really in the sense that he needs probable cause to "demand more". It's been well established that the police do not need even reasonable suspicion to make you exit the car on a traffic stop. So if the guy tries the "slip the license out of a crack in the window" thing with me, I'll just tell him to exit the car. And if he doesn't, I'll make the window opening bigger myself.....

Um, Frank? You did read that little thing that I wrote about Drivers Licenses and their history?

I read a little bit and decided the supreme court cases I posted were more applicable.

here's a link

Also, when the spate of officer impersonations and phony traffic stops were taking place in Colorado, the reminder on the boob tube news was constant. No reason why you shouldn't deal with a cracked window. Or would you fly into a psychotic rage like that Wyoming state trooper instead...

I wouldn't fly into a rage under any circumstances. If I were going to take an unwilling person out of a car to arrest them for refusing my lawful order to exit, I'd break the window, unlock the door, and ask them to exit. If they refused, I'd likely apply a mandibular angle PPCT technique and get them out of the car. I'd be calm. They likely wouldn't.

Can you cut and paste the part of your link where the non-police author says you should only crack your window when the officer pulls you over and refuse to get out of the car if ordered?
 
IN any Profession there are those that are bad examples of respective Profession. The butcher , the baker , the candlestick maker...

Typical BS. Butchers Bakers and Candlestick makers don't have arrest powers and the weight of the corrupt system behind them. Now do they?

Pathetic.

Headline:

Plumbers pull over van loaded with prohibited plumbing equipment. Yeah right.
 
Alcohol checkpoints catch a lot of drunk drivers. They're more efficent than driving around to find them...

FrankDrebin, you are simply mistaken. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration data shows roving police patrols are three times more likely to apprehend drunk drivers than roadblocks. So, what's the real agenda behind roadblocks? I think it is to intimidate the public and get a good look at what ever you can see inside the cars. It sure as hell is not to catch drunks.

As to your "So if the guy tries the "slip the license out of a crack in the window" thing with me, I'll just tell him to exit the car. And if he doesn't, I'll make the window opening bigger myself....." comment, thank you for being a prime example as to why people dislike cops. Punish a person for exercising his right not to talk to the police?? He does not want to talk to you, so you escalate with violence?

I think you need a reminder as regarding who works for who.

Others have said that they would take a field sobriety test. I would not. First, The field sobriety test is a "failure-designed" test, using many unusual acts and skills as its baseline. These unusual skills and acts are virtually impossible to perform without extensive practice, yet citizens are given only one chance to pass. Second, I (living in PRK.) am not required to take the test.
 
FrankDrebin, you are simply mistaken. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration data shows roving police patrols are three times more likely to apprehend drunk drivers than roadblocks.

They're not roadblocks. There's a difference. And what is a "roving patrol" by NHTSA standards? Sitting on a bar waiting for a drunk to come out of the lot?

As to your "So if the guy tries the "slip the license out of a crack in the window" thing with me, I'll just tell him to exit the car. And if he doesn't, I'll make the window opening bigger myself....." comment, thank you for being a prime example as to why people dislike cops. Punish a person for exercising his right not to talk to the police?? He does not want to talk to you, so you escalate with violence?

I never said I'd punish him for not talking to me, I said I'd arrest him for failing to comply with a lawful order. And it is not violence and not escalation. It is making an arrest using the minimum of force necessary.

Frank, you're all over the map here...what's your point, or am I totally humorless (I've been accused of that)

There was really no point to that one....Not sure on your level of humor or lack thereof.

Others have said that they would take a field sobriety test. I would not. First, The field sobriety test is a "failure-designed" test, using many unusual acts and skills as its baseline.

Yeah, visually tracking an object horizontally is something from another planet...

Trivia: Did you know that it is not necessary for the police to obtain a search warrant to take a blood sample from you if they have reasonable suspicion to believe you are driving while impaired? Most do it as a matter of policy, but it is not necessary, as you do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy with regard to yoru physical attributes, including the physical properties of your blood.
 
Typical BS. Butchers Bakers and Candlestick makers don't have arrest powers and the weight of the corrupt system behind them. Now do they?
I was being civil in regards to Professionals.

I'll be blunt. We have LEOs that are NOT cut out to be LEOs, that abuse the powers they have, and think they are better than anyone else - especially the lowly citizen.

I have friends, true friends that are/were LEO. Some are dead, some retired. Some were much older, some younger. These folks may be what some call "old school". I worked / assisted with these folks. These folks, men or women, used common sense and had the ability to think on their feet. They knew the Constitution and BoR. Some even served in the Military, be it Korea, Vietnam or some other hell hole in harm's way.

Now we have always had persons in any Profession shed a bad light on a Profession - that was my earlier point, and tried to be nice. We have LEOs on this board that have shared how they strive to teach the Rookies the Ethics and principles one should exhibit. Same folks have shared how something must have gotten into the water and some new Rookies are Running around playing like they ARE the law or ABOVE the Law.

The ability to have arrest powers and a gun feeds their egos.

I have actually been pulled over in a small community by such a cop for going 3 miles over the speed limit. On a 10 speed bike! I was handcuffed and the whole 9 yards. The Mayor, finally fired this guy, he had the same reputation on 3 previous jobs as LEO other places. He was not LEO material.

One of my best LEO friends worked UC. His partner of 10 yrs decided the power of cocaine and fast money was too tempting. I mean one day he was old school - next day - he was dangerous to be around fellow LEO or the Public. Put my LEO friend ( partner of 10 yrs) in danger, me in danger and a host of folks in danger.

NO disrespect to LEO community. I am on record as being a friend of LEOs, assisting LEOs, and defending LEOs when the bashing starts. I prefer to work with , understand and respect the system.

Some folks flat do not have any business carrying a gun with arrest powers and a badge.

When the policeman becomes the criminal, then the outlaw must become the policeman - John Galt

I felt safer last time I drove thru Ohio, with a bunch of guns, than I do the thought of meeting some LEOs I have read here on this thread pulling over to watch me change a flat tire on the side of the road.

Is this America ?
 
Trivia: Did you know that it is not necessary for the police to obtain a search warrant to take a blood sample from you if they have reasonable suspicion to believe you are driving while impaired? Most do it as a matter of policy, but it is not necessary, as you do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy with regard to yoru physical attributes, including the physical properties of your blood.
Okay, there's something really weird going on...someone here can't help himself from lecturing the average citizen poster about what intrusions they're subject to under stupid and vicious laws and regulations. What happened to that generation of cops that used to question and disregard abusive legislation?

SM, from your mouth to God's ears...
 
FrankDrebin said:
They can't "sample" your breath without reasonable suspicion to believe you're impaired. Do you think they should let you go without testing you if they have reasonable suspicion to believe you're impaired?
Absolutely not. What I disagree with is throwing out a net (i.e. road blocks) and stopping and testing EVERYONE. Do police work and catch the perpetrators... don't put out a drag-net.
 
Frank, I'll see your 3 Supreme Court cases and raise you 5 Supreme's and 5 States. Bring me more, and I'll raise you more. There are literally thousands of cases from the US Supreme's to the Circuits to the State Supreme's. None of them ever overturned by higher courts. That makes them LAW. In those States and/or Circuits...

"The state cannot diminish rights of the people." Hurtado v. California (1884) 1 110 US 516 U.S. Supreme Court. Never overturned. It's the Law!

"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. US, 230 F 486, 489 U.S. Supreme Court. Never overturned. It's the Law!

"Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." Miranda v. Arizona, (1966) 1 384 US 436, 491. U.S. Supreme Court. Never overturned. It's the Law!

?The right to travel is a part of the "liberty" of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment. So much is conceded by the Solicitor General. In Anglo-Saxon law that right was emerging at least as early as the Magna Carta. ? Kent v. Dulles, 357 U.S. 116 (1958) U.S. Supreme Court. Never overturned. It's the Law!

Edwards v California (1941) 314 U.S. 160. The court held that a state may not condition interstate travel upon wealth or lack thereof. U.S. Supreme Court. Never overturned. It's the Law!

State Supreme Court Decisions:

"The use of the automobile as a necessary adjunct to the earning of a livelihood in modern life requires us in the interest of realism to conclude that the right to use an automobile on the public highways partakes of the nature of a liberty within the meaning of the constitutional guarantees of which the citizen not be deprived without due process of law." Berberian v. Lussier, 139 A.2d 869, 872; 87 R.I. 226, 231 (1958). See also: Schecter v. Killingsworth, 380 P.2d 136, 140; 93 Ariz. 273 (1963).

[Rhode Island and Arizona]

"The right to operate a motor vehicle [an automobile] upon the public streets and highways is not a mere privilege. It is a right of liberty, the enjoyment of which is protected by the guarantees of the federal and state constitutions." Adams v. City of Pocatello, 416 P.2d 46, 48; 91 Idaho 99 (1966).

[Idaho]

"The court makes it clear that a license relates to qualifications to engage in profession, business, trade or calling; thus, when merely traveling without compensation or profit, outside of business enterprise or adventure with the corporate state, no license is required of the natural individual traveling for personal business, pleasure and transportation.." Wingfield v. Fielder 2d Ca. 3d 213 (1972).

[California]

"The power to license necessarily includes the power to inhibit unlicensed persons from doing the acts authorized by license. The power to refuse license necessarily gives the power to limit the issuance of licenses." Ex parte M.T. Dickey, 76 W. Va.576, 585; 85 SE 781.

[West Virginia]

In Ex parte Dickey, supra, et al., the court pointed out the distinction in legislative power over a citizen using the public roads for ordinary travel, over one using them in a commercial capacity. The courts holding is: ?As to the former [the citizen using the road for common travel] the extent of legislative power is that of regulation; but, as to the latter [commercial use of the roads], its power is broader, the right may be wholly denied, or it may be permitted to some and denied to others.? We see that the legislature has the power to preclude or prevent those engaged in commercial activity from being on the public roads, but no such power is extended over the citizenry using it for ordinary travel. In this case the legislative power is limited to mere regulation.

And every Circuit has at one time or another upheld the right to travel by whatever means an individual decides is proper for him. Since the US Supreme Court has never granted cert to any of the appeals, that makes it Law Of The Land. The seminal Circuit case?

"No state government entity has the power to allow or deny passage on the highways, byways, nor waterways... transporting his vehicles and personal property for either recreation or business, but by being subject only to local regulation, i.e., safety, caution, traffic lights, speed limits, etc. Travel is not a privilege requiring licensing, vehicle registration, or forced insurance." Chicago Coach Co. v. City of Chicago, 337 Ill. 200, 169 N.E. 22

"Even the legislature has no power to deny to a citizen the right to travel upon the highway and transport his property in the ordinary course of his business or pleasure, though this right may be regulated in accordance with public interest and convenience. ibid at 206.

"The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived." ibid at 221

Had enough?

Let's really tie it together, shall we?

It is commercial use that can and is licensed and regulated. All state laws, concerning vehicle registration and licensing of the driver are all based upon recognition of the states authority to regulate interstate commerce... And where applicable, the Congress in interstate commerce. In every single definition of the word "Person" in every states Motor Vehicle Statutes, it is defined as a commercial enterprise, even when the term "natural person" is used, as it is always used in connection with all other terms of commercial venture. The term "Person" or "Natural Person" is never defined in vehicle codes to denote a private citizen.

On August 20, 1926, the first version of the Uniform Vehicle Code (U.V.C.) was published by the U. S. Department of Transportation, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. This was an attempt (by the D.O.T.) to set federal standards for the regulation of motor vehicles and drivers for interstate commerce. By examining the Statutes At Large, Volume 44, one finds the prior session (first) ran from December 7th, 1925 to July 3rd 1926, the last act of that session being approved July 13th. The next (second) session started December 6th 1926 and ran to March 4th 1927, with acts being enacted as early as December 8th. Since Congress was not in session to pass the U.V.C., and also, being that an examination of the table of laws of the first session does not reveal the U.V.C., it appears it was published under authority of the D.O.T. It is therefore strictly United States commercial law. Since that time it has been revised thirteen times. The states have adopted the U.V.C. into their statutes as a comparison between it and your State's regulation statutes will reveal, and as is claimed by the U.V.C. itself.

Further, every legal definition of "Driver" is a commercial definition. From Bouvier's (1856) to Black's (3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th editions). All Statutory usage conforms the these definitions.

What gives you the right to do most of what you do, on the road, is the Drivers License. Absolutely, if you pull over an unlicensed driver, you will more than likely haul him in. But if this driver has all his ducks in a row, the case will be dismissed before it ever reaches the court. And after a couple of times, you will find a harassment suit on you. This assumes the person you pulled (and keep pulling) over knows all of this and is willing to jump through all the hoops to reclaim his right to travel.

Most people don't know these things, and those of us that do are too chicken to go through with it.

It's a whole lot of hassle, plus it makes the local cops furious!

Did ya get this far Frank?
 
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