Sobriety Checkpoints....

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Or are you guys taking the point of view that everytime you come into personal contact with an LEO you are being "searched"?
Handy-
Well any time I detain you by ultimate force of arms or arrest, I think we'd call that a "seizing", yes?

I am under no obligation to a panhandler, a politician who wants my vote, opinion or hand, a street evangelist, the Census Taker or a gorgeous blonde. I should not be under an obligation to stop on my journey for anyone, barring reasonable suspicion of having committed a crime.

Drunk driving pales in comparison to drug trafficking or "terrorism". When will we learn that there are certain government actions that are simply WRONG, no matter the ends sought.

The argument has such DIRECT parallels to firearms ownership, I'm amazed it's even brought up on this board. Look, there's no doubt that drunk drivers are caught, sanctioned and jailed regularly....just as are violent criminals. The argument that you can get more drunk drivers off the streets by a little bit of random checking is a valid one. But then so is the argument that firearms registration, surprise inspections and "consumption limits" curb gun violence.

The question on the floor is ***AT WHAT PRICE?***
Rich
 
By your reasoning, police would need a warrant to arrest someone who they witnessed blow your head off with a pistol during a liquor store robbery.
What? How is that situation analogous to my simply operating a motor vehicle?
 
the easiest tyranny to administer is the one to which the oppressed willingly submit.

... remember, it's for the children.
 
Such check points are illegal in the state of Washington. Wa state's article 1 section 7 prohibits the gov't from impeding without PC.
 
Rich Lucibella
I should not be under an obligation to stop on my journey for anyone, barring reasonable suspicion of having committed a crime.
This pretty much sums up the bottom line on this issue.
 
I'd like to see some bona fide documentation that stops of this kind have ANY overall positive impact on reducing death, injury or property damage due to alleged impaired operation of a motor vehicle. Even if they did, they're an abomination.

DUI checkpoints are set up regularly during holidays here in our fair commonwealth. I'm wondering how quickly the spam would hit the fan if officers searched each house whose number ended in 5 or a multiple of 5 in a subdivision or subdivisions where they were 'looking' for drug use or trafficking. Just as with the 'sobriety stop' you could refuse the search, but they'd cuff you, take you to the bed and breakfast, take your kids to CPS and search to their hearts content. Of course, then you could be held on whatever other evidence they may happen to find, even if you're not involved with drugs. Folks WOULD NOT stand for it.

Here, it's all about the revnue. The state controls the purchase and distrubuton of alcohol (they even have their own label and production facilities), takes their cut off the top, taxes the purchase of spirits in stores, pubs or restaurants, sets the 'impaired' BAC at .08 or .06 so that virtually everyone who imbibes and operates is 'impaired', then profits from state run 'treatment' programs that one must attend if found not innocent or DUI or other alcohol related charges . The commonwealth gets away with it by getting grief deranged folks like MADD to 'wave the bloody shirt', screaming that 'its for the children', effectively screening the fact that the government gets rich on the whole scam from top to bottom while trampling the rights of its citizens. (BTW, these 'treatment' programs are all 'god' centered, which brings up a whole other constitutional issue.)

While no one says you gotta drink, it should be your right to do so as long as you're not hurting anyone else.

Is the constitution found anywhere today besides on a roll in the restroom?
 
Well any time I detain you by ultimate force of arms or arrest, I think we'd call that a "seizing", yes?
Rich, do you feel the same about stop signs? An officer doesn't stop your car by "ultimate force", but by the authority we agree to by seeking a driver's license. When you violate that contract, then maybe you're into the arrest zone.

If you're going to take the tact that having to stop to talk to a cop is an abridgement of rights, then why not also take issue with similar "abridgements", like traffic lights, speed limits, equipment regulations and licensing requirements? That traffic light is "detaining" you just like the cop is.
 
I did some research on Oregon law and found that checks for anything (drunk driving, insurance, whatever) were deemed illegal and against the Constitution (both state and federal). That's why I've never seen or heard of one around here :).

You know, for a semi-socialist state (we are exactly half and half when it comes to being conservative and liberal) it has some pretty good laws when it comes to freedoms.

I guess that the car manufacturers could start putting in breath monitors into the cars that won't start if you blow positive or maybe blood monitors that you have to test before it will start. That would not be considered intrusive as long as the car makers did it without a mandate from the government.

Me, I operate under "Mom's Law" (my real in the flesh mother): You take a sip of alcohol, even one sip and no driving for you. If I catch you driving, even after one sip I'll beat your butt.

Can't argue with that :D.

Also, the state of Oregon has some pretty tough laws about DUII and they are getting tougher. If you are caught DUII they seize your car and take your DL for 1 year. It's still a misdeamoner(sp) but they are thinking of making it a Class D (the lowest one) Felony because of the seizure (right now they are trying to decide if it's Constitutional (state and fed levels) to do this without if being a jailable for over 1 year offense).

Also, there is a bill in the legislature that will make it homicide, Class A felony, if you drive drunk and kill someone. Right now it's a Class D felony and has a maximum of 4 years per person killed. If they make it a Class A then it's the norm of 25 to life.

I know that some would think this as an extreme punishment but you have to remember that when you take someone's life that isn't justified you have taken away the ultimate, you have removed their freedom entirely so therefore I don't think it's extreme to remove yours (the drunk driver that kills).

Wayne
 
Is driving a right or a privilege?

Let's look at a few rulings that talk about rights and statutes in general:

First and foremost is Marbury v Madison (1803); A void act is void ab initio.

The U.S. Supreme Court states very plainly: "The state cannot diminish rights of the people." Hurtado v. California (1884) 1 110 US 516

"Statutes that violate the plain and obvious principles of common right and common reason are null and void." Bennett v. Boggs, 1 Baldw 60

"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. US, 230 F 486, 489

"Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." Miranda v. Arizona, (1966) 1 384 US 436, 491.

"There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of constitutional rights." Sherer v. Cullen, 481 F 946.

The six cases (among many others that could be cited) above illustrate that where rights are concerned, they cannot be taxed, licensed, regulated into privilege or made criminal acts.

Now, what about that "so-called" right to travel? While I could list many cases from lower courts that have never been overturned, at the Supreme Court level there is one SCOTUS decision that exemplifies the right itself:

"The right to travel is a part of the "liberty" of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment. So much is conceded by the Solicitor General. In Anglo-Saxon law that right was emerging at least as early as the Magna Carta." Kent v. Dulles, 357 U.S. 116 (1958)

State legislators can make no claim that the public highways are property belonging to them, nor can they claim said highways are the property of any fictional instrumentality created by them. The public highways belong to the people at large. State office holders are only political trustees, holding the people's highways in political trust for the people.

The case history of the automobile shows that it has always been lawful to travel on the public roads and streets with an automobile, for it cannot be otherwise. The obvious reasons why it is lawful to travel on the public roads, by whatever means of conveyance available, is that the public roads belong to the people and are built for, and dedicated to, the purpose of common travel. The court cites are numerous:

"No state government entity has the power to allow or deny passage on the highways, byways, nor waterways... transporting his vehicles and personal property for either recreation or business, but by being subject only to local regulation, i.e., safety, caution, traffic lights, speed limits, etc. Travel is not a privilege requiring licensing, vehicle registration, or forced insurance." Chicago Coach Co. v. City of Chicago, 337 Ill. 200, 169 N.E. 22

"Even the legislature has no power to deny to a citizen the right to travel upon the highway and transport his property in the ordinary course of his business or pleasure, though this right may be regulated in accordance with public interest and convenience. ibid at 206.

"The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived." ibid at 221

"It is well-established law that the highways of the state are public property; and their primary and preferred use is for private purposes..." Stephenson v. Binford 287 U.S. 251, 264, et al

"It is settled that the streets of a city belong to the people of a state and the use thereof is an inalienable right of every citizen of the state." Whyte v. City of Sacramento, 165 Cal. App.534, 547

"The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right." Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938, at 941.

"The assertion of federal rights, when plainly and reasonably made, is not to be defeated under the name of local practice." Davis v. Wechsler, 263 US 22, at 24.

"The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579

The court distinguishes the difference between private travel and travel for commerce:

"...For while a citizen has the right to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, that right does not extend to the use of the highways...as a place for private gain. For the latter purpose, no person has a vested right to use the highways of this state, but it is a privilege...which the (state) may grant or withhold at its discretion..." State v. Johnson, 245 P 1073.

By statute, methods of transportation are codified...

"Motor vehicle" means every description of carriage or other contrivance propelled or drawn by mechanical power and used for commercial purposes on the highways in transportation of passengers, passengers and property, or property and cargo;... "Used for commercial purposes" means the carriage of persons or property for any fare, fee, rate, charge or other consideration, or directly or indirectly in connection with any business, or other undertaking intended for profit[.]? 18 U.S.C. 31

... and further by case law:

"A carriage is peculiarly a family or household article. It contributes in a large degree to the health, convenience, comfort, and welfare of the householder or of the family." Arthur v Morgan, 113 U.S. 495, 500, 5 S.Ct. 241, 243 (S.D. NY 1884).

"The Supreme Court, in Arthur v. Morgan, 112 U.S. 495, 5 S.Ct. 241, 28 L.Ed. 825, held that carriages were properly classified as household effects, and we see no reason that automobiles should not be similarly disposed of." Hillhouse v United States, 152 F. 163, 164 (2nd Cir. 1907). "A soldier's personal automobile is part of his 'Household goods[.]'" U.S. v Bomar, C.A.5(Tex.), 8 F.3d 226, 235 19A Words and Phrases - Permanent Edition (West) pocket part 94.

As I have just demonstrated, traveling freely, going about one's daily activities, is the exercise of a most basic right. The only real distinction made is one of personal use and commercial use.

It is commercial use that can and is licensed and regulated. All state laws, concerning vehicle registration and licensing of the driver are all based upon recognition of the states authority to regulate interstate commerce... And where applicable, the Congress in interstate commerce. In every single definition of the word "Person" in every states Motor Vehicle Statutes, it is defined as a commercial enterprise, even when the term "natural person" is used, as it is always used in connection with all other terms of commercial venture. The term "Person" or "Natural Person" is never defined in vehicle codes to denote a private citizen.

For those of you that adhere to case law and precedent (Stare Decisis), I have just given you the basis for the right to travel freely and unrestricted upon public roads and highways by whatever conveyance you as a citizen may choose, subject only by commercial restrictions.

To explore this further would be outside the topic of this thread. Suffice it to say that there is enough case law here for anyone to do there own research into this topic.
 
Rich, do you feel the same about stop signs? An officer doesn't stop your car by "ultimate force", but by the authority we agree to by seeking a driver's license. When you violate that contract, then maybe you're into the arrest zone.

If you're going to take the tact that having to stop to talk to a cop is an abridgement of rights, then why not also take issue with similar "abridgements", like traffic lights, speed limits, equipment regulations and licensing requirements? That traffic light is "detaining" you just like the cop is

Stop signs are a traffic control device. According to the BoR's the police need to see you commit a crime before they can stop you. It's really that simple. They are commiting a civil rights violation, and apparently you and many million others see nothing wrong in it. You are wrong.
 
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Anti-
Once again, I'm humbled by the education. I do understand that there are individuals who have gotten away with driving without license or registration....but I never understood the grounds.

Everyone needs to read your history lesson; especially the distinction between commercial and personal travel.

Handy-
Stop signs don't ask for my license or scrutinize my lady. They assist in the rapid and orderly progression of traffic and speed me on my way. They render my *neighbor's* use of the roads as equal to mine.

Human stops, however, are a very different story. They are not momentary; are not scheduled; are not necessary to the flow of traffic; and are discriminatory to the person stopped vs all his *neighbors*.

What Antipitas has just described to you is the history of a right turned into privilege. Just as your children will explain to their children regarding firearms:
Firearms ownership is a privilege, not a right. It became so when .gov required licensing of all firearms in 2009. And it's Constitutional, too; the Supreme Court ruled in 2011 that private ownership of firearms could affect Interstate Commerce (errrr economics), so the Federal Government has every right to regulate [within the constraints of the Second Amendment, of course]. After all, you just can't have people owning deadly weapons without State Approved training and Papers. They might actually try to sell them across State lines without the proper taxes being paid to benefit the rest of us.

Freedom is Slavery.
War is Peace.
Rich
 
While it's taken close to two years to track down all this info, there is a price to pay for utilizing the info.

It seems the entire thing is bound up in administrative and contract law... And a little fraud on the part of the State. Regardless, once you have "won" your right to travel, you will have to fight the same court battle over and over as you travel into other counties/state. Not for the faint hearted, or those of us that don't have deep pockets for all the filing fees required to file the proper paperwork prior to the hearing on the ticket(s) some misinformed LEO will give you. Heck, in some jurisdictions, you will go to jail and have to fight it from there. But it can be done, and a few brave souls are doing it. Therefore, all the paperwork (previous cases you've won and the legal Demurrer brief which you will file before any court hearing on the tickets) will need to be carried with you at all times while driving.

None of the above means that you are free to violate traffic laws. Those are just and reasonable restrictions re: Chicago Coach Co. v. City of Chicago, 337 Ill. 200, 169 N.E. 22

That's what it takes to get your right converted from a privilege.

Can you imagine the uproar you would cause at a check point? As it stands, even the Supreme Court rulings on sobriety checks, only affect LICENSED drivers and their REGISTERED vehicles. A citizen going about their ordinary affairs cannot be stopped, without Probable Cause. And knowing all of this, I'm still too chicken to attempt it. *sigh* And if I did, I would still buckle up and still carry insurance. For me, it's just prudent.
 
Rich,

If a cop waves you to stop on a road, you must stop. He is not arresting you or detaining you. He might be making room for an emergency vehicle, directing traffic instead of a light, or looking for information on a fugitive. They are all the same thing and don't take on different qualities depending on WHY the cop stops your car. One of the function of police is the discretionary direction of traffic.

One thing you COULD do in such a stop is to not roll down your window further than necessary to slide license and registration out. I don't know what the law is on that, but you've satisfied the stop requirement without actually presenting anything to search aside from what is could be seen at any time, and you're speech. At that point the cop would have to establish probable cause to demand more.
 
Handy-
Stop....you're embarrassing yourself now.
If a cop waves you to stop on a road, you must stop. He is not arresting you or detaining you.
Oh, I see. But if I refuse to stop I may be arrested....ergo, he IS stopping me by force of law or violence. But then, never mind....in the New Handy Age, being "stopped" is not the same as being "detained"; even though it requires that I remain in place, without suspicion of criminal activity, by threat of force, for a period of time that I would prefer to be pursuing Life, Liberty and Happiness. :confused:

He might be making room for an emergency vehicle, directing traffic instead of a light, or looking for information on a fugitive.
Absolutely. In which case, he has no need to interview me or ask for my Travel Permit, unless I am REASONABLY suspected of being the target of that fugitive search.....wait respectfully and wave bye-bye to the nice officer, Handy. I agree he's doing his job and our cooperation is required.

They are all the same thing and don't take on different qualities depending on WHY the cop stops your car. One of the function of police is the discretionary direction of traffic.
Poor attempt at blurring the issue, I'm afraid. We're not talking about "directing" traffic....we're talking about stops and interviews without Probable Cause....a term which is being written out of the American vocabulary far too quickly.

There is a VERY REAL difference between directing traffic and Fishing Expedition, cum "Travel Papers?- Sniff Your Breath?- Light Your Pupils?- Check Your Occupants?- Surveil Your Posessions?- Why Are You So Nervous Ma'am?" roadblocks and random stops.
Rich
 
One thing you COULD do in such a stop is to not roll down your window further than necessary to slide license and registration out.
I tried that in Wyoming. The state trooper started slamming his metal pad-holder on the edge of the glass, yelling at me to lower my window all the way down. When you're in the middle of nowhere, still far from Rawlins, you comply. He even marred the rental car. What spooked my pregnant wife was his psychotic demeanor...
 
The sobriety test roadblocks are something that have been introduced gradually, and like many other forms of the progressive agenda a familiar m.o. called incrementalism is observed.

Reverting back to places where government and it's policing agencies have always exercized considerably more power than in the general public domain; at least in the 1970s and into the 80s there were never any such thing as "sobriety checkpoints" on Air Force bases - at least on any AFB I was stationed at or visited. Police patrols only ever addressed the issue of DWIs like any traditional civilian police agency in the form of PC, stop, etc.

Antipitas
State legislators can make no claim that the public highways are property belonging to them, nor can they claim said highways are the property of any fictional instrumentality created by them. The public highways belong to the people at large. State office holders are only political trustees, holding the people's highways in political trust for the people.
I have heard that in Texas there are plans to convert several thousand miles of public highway into toll roads, and that similar plans are afoot in many other states like California (I've heard an audio clip of Arnold telling everyone "how badly they are needed").
"No state government entity has the power to allow or deny passage on the highways, byways, nor waterways... transporting his vehicles and personal property for either recreation or business, but by being subject only to local regulation, i.e., safety, caution, traffic lights, speed limits, etc. Travel is not a privilege requiring licensing, vehicle registration, or forced insurance." Chicago Coach Co. v. City of Chicago, 337 Ill. 200, 169 N.E. 22
Forced insurance is nothing more than corporate-government socialism.
"...For while a citizen has the right to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, that right does not extend to the use of the highways...as a place for private gain. For the latter purpose, no person has a vested right to use the highways of this state, but it is a privilege...which the (state) may grant or withhold at its discretion..." State v. Johnson, 245 P 1073.
It is commercial use that can and is licensed and regulated. All state laws, concerning vehicle registration and licensing of the driver are all based upon recognition of the states authority to regulate interstate commerce... And where applicable, the Congress in interstate commerce. In every single definition of the word "Person" in every states Motor Vehicle Statutes, it is defined as a commercial enterprise, even when the term "natural person" is used, as it is always used in connection with all other terms of commercial venture. The term "Person" or "Natural Person" is never defined in vehicle codes to denote a private citizen.
I see this reflected in the Texas Transportation Code; while doing a little research a ways back I couldn't find anything to indicate private vehicles are subject to the codified restrictions on public highways - they all seem directed at commercial vehicles (someone please cite it if they know where it can be found).
 
One thing you COULD do in such a stop is to not roll down your window further than necessary to slide license and registration out. I don't know what the law is on that, but you've satisfied the stop requirement without actually presenting anything to search aside from what is could be seen at any time, and you're speech. At that point the cop would have to establish probable cause to demand more.

Not really in the sense that he needs probable cause to "demand more". It's been well established that the police do not need even reasonable suspicion to make you exit the car on a traffic stop. So if the guy tries the "slip the license out of a crack in the window" thing with me, I'll just tell him to exit the car. And if he doesn't, I'll make the window opening bigger myself.....
 
Not really in the sense that he needs probable cause to "demand more". It's been well established that the police do not need even reasonable suspicion to make you exit the car on a traffic stop. So if the guy tries the "slip the license out of a crack in the window" thing with me, I'll just tell him to exit the car. And if he doesn't, I'll make the window opening bigger myself.....


And folks wonder why some people dislike LEO's.
 
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