So what's the big BBQ glove for when shooting CMP service rifle ?

[Bart B.]

Wogpotter, if you're a fullbore competitor at Great Britian's Bisley range, I think you would know that if everyone had a super accurate rifle and ammo that shot no worse than 1/10th MOA at 1000 yards, only those competitors with good marksmanship skills will produce good scores.

My read of your following remarks:

Never used 'em in the AF either. Matches, oh yeah everybody was into any little thing that would get them an extra .005 (adjusted for aggregate from last year & handicap).
That's why I stopped competitive shooting, it became an equipment game, not any kind of skill test.

... led me to believe and skill and knowledge level of marksmanship was not going to help produce good scores.

It's always been a marksmanship game; expecially in Great Britain, the country and it's Commonwealth brethern, who decided a century ago that the best way to measure marksmanship skills across the many competitive shooters was to issue everyone SMLE .303's and the same lot of ammunition. That would level the playing field as only the best marksmanship endowed copmpetitors would shoot the best scores and win. No handloaded nor reloaded ammo was allowed.

No concerns nor issues whatsoever of the fact that all those SMLE's didn't shoot a given lot of ammo to the same accuracy level. Nor do they all have the same trigger pulling properties. And their barrels have all sorts of differences in both bore and groove diameters as well as wear. If the previous year's winner of the big annual match just happened to draw the least accurate rifle, he would place near the bottom of the scoreboard regardless of applying the best marksmanship skills known to mankind.

Better equipment helps all marksmanship skill levels. It helps those with lesser skills in marksmanship more easily see what their errors are and not have to blame the equipment. Everyone improves their marksmanship skills quicker with better equipment; more accurate rifles and ammo.

 

[wogpotter]

I was, several times. I made it to the level of that award 3 times.

So you've never bought a shooting "goodie" because it "gives you an edge" over the competition?

You were right about how shooting USED to be though. It was a challenge of individual skill. You'd "lay in the dirt" & try to best both yourself & everyone else on the firing line as hard as you could. Then at the end of the day you'd sit in the bar with those same people considering them great company as you dissected the days successes & not so successful things.

Now even "F" class is a gadget game. Everything is the gun's ability. Bags fore & aft, rests with micrometer adjustments & bull barrels you could use to mount a street light on.

My point was that individual skills were replaced by an obsession with the latest "sanctioned" gadget, & that those were reducing the need for actual skills in competitors accordingly. I've heard several times that it's "impossible" to hit a bulls-eye at 1,000 yards without a scope! Even after explaining that its a BIG bullseye on a 5' X 5' target its supposedly not doable. I have no idea how they think Palma is conducted as its obviously totally not doable!

 

[MrBorland]

So you've never bought a shooting "goodie" because it "gives you an edge" over the competition?

Personally, I've bought my share of competition gear, but not because I thought it'd give me an edge over my competition, but moreso because without it, I'd needlessly be handicapping myself. Why do that? It's a competition, after all.

Look, there are many pistol shooters who don't have a prayer against me no matter what gear they're using, and there are many shooters I don't have a prayer against no matter what gear I'm using. The gear fine tune one's performance, and allows one to shoot to their potential, and since the competition between your peers is tight, it matters. I for one don't want to come home from a big match empty handed because my gear underperformed by the tiniest margin that I also happened to lose by.

In the case of Service Rifle, so far all I see is that a shooter with a good upper with a good barrel, a good lower with a good trigger, good ammo, a coat and a BBQ glove can win matches if they're up to it.

 

[Dfariswheel]

Yeah that was another question I had .those jackets must be hot . My range is in the east county . That means 10* hotter then where I live . Meaning it's often in the 80s at the range . I don't want to be uncomfortable while shooting . Do they make a light jacket with all the pads in all the right places .

Check the surplus outlets. many will still have the USMC lightweight shooting jackets.
Most are commercial makes now and come in other colors, but these are a light field jacket-like coat with pads on the elbows, shoulder, and as I remember, a pad on the upper arm for use with the sling.

Here's an example:

http://www.armynavysales.com/products/usmc-shooter-jacket/

 

[Slamfire]

I am skeptical of goodies, especially adjustable goodies that come loose. I don’t agree with the idea that equipment trumps skill. Better equipment will help someone shoot better and the equipment used in American NRA highpower and small bore prone shooting sports has evolved considerably since Army support ended 1969-1970. Prior to then, the Army had the big vote at the rules committee and depending on time period, they wanted shooters to use a rifle that looked and operated similar to a M1903 or a Garand. The Army viewed the shooting sports as a training ground for future draftees. When I have looked at the rules of the period, or talked to shooters of the period, there were severe limits on weight, stock configuration, for match rifles. As an example, you could only use 308 Win or 30-06 cartridges, there was a time when a match rifle could not weigh more than 10 pounds and had to have a fixed cheekpiece and fixed buttplate. Triggers were around 3.5 pounds. Service rifle had severe limitations, basically the service rifle had to look like a service rifle even though internally, it was not. As the US lost to the Russians in International Small bore competition the rules limiting smallbore rifle configuration were relaxed. Small bore prone rifles made prior to the mid 60’s have heavy triggers, fixed buttplates, fixed cheekpieces, but after rule relaxation, triggers only had to be safe, and stocks were being created with adjustments.

I still shoot Highpower, mid and long range, and small bore prone. For XTC I have seen the bolt action match rifle of the 70’s, (which were basically a M70 or M700 in 308 Win) disappear from the firing line. In my opinion, the most competitive rifle is built around a AR type action, in a 6mm or 6.5mm cartridge. In many matches I am still banging away with a pre 64 M70 in 308 Win, good gas gun shooters are always ahead of me in the rapids, standing, well I used to be good, long range, the better shooters have the better scores regardless of equipment. No one is going to win an XTC with a WW1 service rifle, such as M1903, Mauser, or SMLE, and no one should expect to. The Garand and M1a have been replaced by the AR15. With an AR15 you do about the same standing, do much better in the rapids, and a little worse at long range, but not by much. At the end of the day, the AR15 will have the higher score.

At the smallbore matches I attend, I can say you can't buy a match with equipment. One of the better smallbore shots around here, a multiple State Champion, is using a 1978 Anschutz. Another gentleman, who is a gunsmith, his rifles are highly customized , individualized and he is doing exceptionally well. But, I don’t believe it is just the rifle, the gunsmith guy practices with a SCATT target system http://www.championshooters.com/ind...id=2081&virtuemart_category_id=106&Itemid=111 when he is not practicing with live ammunition on his land. I have seen a number of small bore prone shooters who have the latest and greatest equipment, and equipment does not buy them a match.

I am a sling shooter, have not tried F class, but the F class National Champions I know, are outstanding shooters. The older shooter, he has given up prone with a sling and irons, but when he could see a post, he was a HM. The younger F Class shooter is concentrating on F Class, but is an outstanding shooter. Both of these shooters have won Nationally in F Class tactical, which requires the use of the 308, and the primary reason (in my opinion) is that both of these shooters are outstanding wind readers. You can’t buy sight alignment, trigger pull, and wind reading ability.

If you want to win, you do have to keep up with equipment, calibers, and bullets. Just like any other sport, things change, and often, change adds to the score. I have seen a lot of shooters come and go. There are those who if they are no longer winning, they won’t show up. For them, shooting was just a huge ego trip. I have heard these types complain about everything and anything, and create some invented reason for why they are not longer shooting, but it really comes down to the fact that they are no longer winning and they can't stand being someone "who used to be good".

 

[Metal god]

In the case of Service Rifle, so far all I see is that a shooter with a good upper with a good barrel, a good lower with a good trigger, good ammo, a coat and a BBQ glove can win matches if they're up to it.

Cool , I have a Match grade 1-8 twist 5r rifled barrel on the way , Giesslie service rifle trigger , free float sleeve , Matched upper and lower , I reload and plan to get some sort of jacket and ov-glove . Sounds like all I'll need to do is show up and pick up my prize Hmm and all this time I thought I'd have to shoot the rifle too .

I'm really just kidding about all that but I guess I should not be surprised about how some may feel about competition . After all most of us that have competed in what ever sport are competitive at are core and don't like to loose . I feel I'm lucky is some ways . I've played on teams that did not win a game and teams that won championships . I have felt both side winning and loosing . It has aloud me to have fun while loosing and not strut while winning . At this time I only have one goal for my first comp . That is not to come in last , that would really suck .

 

[MrBorland]

Cool , I have a Match grade 1-8 twist 5r rifled barrel on the way , Giesslie service rifle trigger , free float sleeve , Matched upper and lower , I reload and plan to get some sort of jacket and ov-glove . Sounds like all I'll need to do is show up and pick up my prise Hmm and all this time I thought I'd have to shoot the rifle too

Cool, indeed.

FWIW, I put together a decent "standard" set up earlier in the spring, whipped up a "standard" load, and have been practicing my standing slow fire almost exclusively. I've got about 1,200 rounds down the tube, and am averaging a SF 187 on an SR-1 target at 100 yards. I shot a personal best of 193 last week (pic below). Time to start working on load development as well as sitting and prone, but I'm satisfied I've so far made good choices regarding my gear.


Standing, slow fire, 100 yards, SR-1 target:

 

[Metal god]

( did I really spell prize with an "s" ) Fixed

That's some nice shooting as far as I'm concerned . I'm going out tomorrow to shoot again . I'll have targets at 1,2 & 300yds . I'll be using my carbine again that has a mil-spec trigger and fixed Troy battle sight with what I assume is your two standard apertures . The sight works pretty good but I would love to have a much smaller aperture for it . I'll only have my 55gr-fmj ammo I loaded as well . It shoots good though , I was shooting sub moa with a build I helped my dad with . We took his rifle out last week for the first time . It shoots real nice for a $770 rifle . I'll do a review on it soon .

Anyway tomorrow should be fun . My new rifle will not be finish until August so all I have to practice with is my carbine . I just hope using the carbine to practice does not give me any bad habits .

 

[P-990]

Sounds like a good rig Metal, it won't hold you back! Just hope you're not too attached to the barrel, barrels are consumable once you get into a real habit.

It's been a couple of years since I picked up my gear, but in my experience any stock Rock River, Armalite, WOA upper, etc is perfectly capable of winning anywhere Service Rifle is fired. The targets aren't that small and the accuracy required to shoot cleans isn't too demanding, at least of the gear.

Since we've drifted a little, I'll throw out some thoughts.

1) Learn to shoot offhand. You will never, ever win anything until you're comfortable shooting on your feet. See MrBorland's target for reference on what you want to be able to do. (BTW, I see a High Master card in somebody's future.)

2) Learn to shoot prone slow. Yes, it's the most stable and easiest position to shoot. Which is why small inconsistencies translate to noticeable dispersion downrange. I didn't really get good at shooting prone slow until I shot a winter of 50' smallbore and learned how to minimize my movement running the rifle.

3) Don't stress over the details of the ammo and load development. This is not to say just load and go. But for short range ammo, find a combination you can load reliably on a progressive or with just hand thrown charges. Spend your time on dry-fire and practice. On 600-yard ammo, be fussy and find what your barrel likes, though you'll find Sierra and Nosler 80gr .224 bullets have a fairly generous sweet spot where they will shoot from good to great. (I like to load 80gr Noslers about .015-020" off the lands.)

4) Don't be attached to your barrel and keep a round count! Many shooters I used to shoot with (and myself) like the inexpensive Wilson SS barrels. They shoot really well and for $250, you don't cry when you decide to take it off just because it has 3500-4000 rounds on it.

After writing all that I want to go back and finish my DR badge (26 points picked up, with 2 hard Regional legs) and maybe head to Perry to try for a P-100.

Good luck to all!

 

[4V50 Gary]

Why the BBQ mitt? Loop sling. Sling is tight against the arm and the hand that supports the forearm. The mitt keeps the sling's leather from cutting into the hand.

 

[MrBorland]

MG -

I'm new to the whole rifle thing, but P-990's advice seems spot-on. At least, that's the route I've taken so far, and it's been working out well. I've focused on standing SF to date for the reason P-990 articulated, but I'm going to start incorporating prone SF shooting into my practice sessions soon. My range only goes to 300 yards, but I'm fortunate Camp Butner is less than 30 minute away, so I'll have opportunities to shoot full XTC matches.

Good luck!

 

[Bart B.]

So you've never bought a shooting "goodie" because it "gives you an edge" over the competition?

No, I've not. The only reason I bought something that may be a shooting "goodie" was to improve my own performance or that of my rifle and ammo. I've never competed against anyone so I've no interest nor desire to have an edge over the other competitors. I compete with them. I compete only against myself. I'm the one who makes my scores what they are. So it's in my interest to improve my stuff; rifle, ammo and abilities.

You were right about how shooting USED to be though. It was a challenge of individual skill. You'd "lay in the dirt" & try to best both yourself & everyone else on the firing line as hard as you could. Then at the end of the day you'd sit in the bar with those same people considering them great company as you dissected the days successes & not so successful things.

It's still a challenge of individual skill. But the results vary by equipment used, too. But the best equipment isn't always the most accurate. Some match winners and record setters with a choice of several arms pick the one with the best trigger but not the best accuracy. That happened at the USA Nationals some years ago.

Now even "F" class is a gadget game. Everything is the gun's ability. Bags fore & aft, rests with micrometer adjustments & bull barrels you could use to mount a street light on.?

Benchrest is much the same. But one still has to position the rifle the same for each shot and compensate for the atmospheric conditions; there is a lot of skill and knowledge involved in that.

My point was that individual skills were replaced by an obsession with the latest "sanctioned" gadget, & that those were reducing the need for actual skills in competitors accordingly

Many shooting gadgets have marketing behind them that influences the ignorant and entertains the knowledgable. I learned decades ago to do those few things that are important right and forget all the rest. For example, total preparation of cases. Get decent ones to start with and they don't need any prep to shoot 1/4 MOA through 200 yards or 1/2 MOA at 1000.

I've heard several times that it's "impossible" to hit a bulls-eye at 1,000 yards without a scope! Even after explaining that its a BIG bullseye on a 5' X 5' target its supposedly not doable. I have no idea how they think Palma is conducted as its obviously totally not doable!

As most folks are familiar with targets with aiming bulls 4 to 8 inches diameter for use up through 100 yards, they often think the same size bull is used in Palma matches. When I've tactfully explained that a 2.2" bull can be seen and aimed at 50 yards away, they all find it easy to understand how a 44" bull can be seen at 1000 yards.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I don't care what the game is, I find it amusing that folks think that equipment can replace skill.

If I played against Tiger Woods and he used my clubs and I used his, guess who would win? If I played against Tiger and he used nothing but a Pitching Wedge, guess who would win?

In it's simplest form, the results of any contest are, Winner (or Score) = Equipment+Skill+Knowledge.

My skill and knowledge at golf is so poor that no equipment in the world can give me a better score than Tiger and his skill and knowledge are so great that no lack of equipment can reduce him enough that I can win. I'm confident that he could play the entire match with a baseball bat and still beat me.

Likewise, I could use a match winning 1,000 yard rifle and ammo and let the guy who won the match with it use my rifle and ammo and guess who would win? I suck at golf but I don't suck at shooting a rifle. I'm no National Match winner but I don't suck. Still, no equipment can make me beat the best and the odds are good that the best would still beat me, even if they used my equipment.

The equipment only makes the best better. It doesn't make the mediocre or poor the best.

 

[Unlicensed Dremel]

False dichotomy. It's not either / or. It's a continuum.... equipment most certainly CAN replace skill at some point on the scale, if by "replacing skill", you mean being the difference between winning or losing. If Tiger had to use a shovel instead of a pitching wedge, and you had all your clubs, who would win? A tree branch he found at the first tee?

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

False dichotomy?

How about Reductio ad absurdum?

Obviously, if you take away any and all equipment that can reasonably be used to play the game... well... the game can't really be played, now can it?

Likewise, I could beat the best 1,000 yard rifle shooter in the world if I used my own .243 and he used a 10/22.

That's not the point.

The point is that great equipment doesn't make a crappy (or even mediocre) player beat the best players. Great equipment can make you better and it can make the best better but it does not make not-the-best into the best unless they were already very darn close to the best. If it does, the previous-best can simply get that same equipment and they'll be the best again.

 

[Bart B.]

There once was a guy on the internet claiming David Tubb or Mid Tomkins could win the USA NRA Nationals or any match they shot in using a standard issue AK47 and ordinary ball ammo.

Then someone came along and commented to the tune of: "What if the guys who placed second through fourth a few points lower at the Nationals right behind David and Mid were there with their top quality match rifles and ammo? Would they also shoot scores down low where those two would shooting that AK47?"

 

[Jim Watson]

Yeah, that is kind of silly.
But as I often say, the High Masters don't need the very best in gear to beat me, they need the very best to keep up with the other High Masters.

 

[MrBorland]

Another subtle point worth mentioning: The nature of competition doesn't guarantee the best will win - the best that day wins. On average, it's the better shooter, but it ain't always so. Shoot your best, and let the chips fall where they may.

Last year, I beat a reigning IDPA National Champion in one of their Big 3. He made a mistake and I was one his heels. It was tight, and he's the better shooter, but I went home with hardware and he went home with bupkis. We were both using gear that's pretty standard for the sport and I seriously doubt better gear would've made much difference, but lesser gear likely would have.

 

[Metal god]

I just got back from the range . I'm here to tell ya that I need a BBQ mitt and a jacket or at least something to protect my left arm and elbows . Being slung up tight is hard on the arm and wrist , at least for me it was . The sling was digging into my wrist and cutting the circulation off to my arm . Granted I was not using the right firearm or sling for the job and the right ones may have been better on the arm . Like I said I used my carbine with mil-spec trigger and Magpul furniture and a cheap nylon sling .

I'll post pics of my targets as soon as I get them loaded . I shot 20rds standing free hand ( is that SF ) at 100yds and 10rds at 200yds SF, I also shot 300yds prone and tried a few rounds sitting at 100 and 200yds . Again I'm not going to win anything with the way I shot today but I am encouraged .

I need some lessons on how to shoot prone . It by far was the hardest on my back . I cramped up so fast and really rushed the shots because of that . I did manage to get 7 of ten shots on target though . I also had 7 of 10 shots on target at 200yds SF . I think I had all 20 shots on target at 100yds but the score would not have been good . I was really kinda winging it today because i never adjusted my front sight post ( rear is fixed ) The gun was sighted in at 50yds the first time I ever shot it and I have not touched the sights since . I'm not sure If I'm waisting my time practicing with this gun or not . Maybe I should put a carry handle on it . That way I could adjust for each distance and put a smaller aperture on it . I don't know but I did have fun today .

 

[Metal god]

Heres the rifle

20 shots at 100 yards That's a 6" shoot-n-see and I only see 18 hits

10 shots 200 yards standing

and my 300yd prone pretty much looked the same as my 200yd target