So what was your experience like when you are carrying and ...

I live and work in the belly of the anti-gun beast Chicago. Admittedly, I haven't dealt with legal CCW holders, however, I think that failure to disclose the presence of a legal weapon is bad idea.

This "I am not required to inform" with the aggressive tone is one of the problems with the zealots on our side.

I think that you should be required to inform LEOs as to your CCW status when being stopped/interviewed.

There is no reason not to inform other than alienating the LEO. If you are legit you are legit.
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Why should I have to inform you of anything of the sort? I have already gone through the back ground checks and other requirements. I am obviously properly concealing because you do not notice it.

Are you afraid it might jump out on its own and bite you?

Do you feel that the legal CCW holder is likely to turn on you at a traffic stop and shoot you?

I got news for you, if I wanted to kill an LEO at a traffic stop I would not start the meeting by saying "I have a gun on me." What you get from a law abiding citizen telling you they have a CCW is nothing. You are NO SAFER than you were before.

On the other hand the law abiding citizen is now open to wild persecution by LEOs who do not know or understand the law. Case in point is the poor guy in CA who was picking up his shooting buddy at the airport on the way to the range. All his guns are locked up in the back and even the police say he was not up to no good. They ask him at a traffic stop on the way in if he has firearms, he says yes and his wife learns of it by seeing the report on the news as her husband is hauled off to jail for a variety of BS charges that will never stand up. The LEO's inconvenience is NIL. They can be as ignorant as they want, mess up as badly as they care when handling legal gun owners and there is ZERO culpability. The law abiding citizen though winds up at the minimum detained and at the worst arrested for charges that will only get thrown out later or at worst for the citizen, plead down because he cannot afford the legal costs involved in fixing the LEOs mistake.
Revealing when not required only servers to harm the citizen and does nothing for the LEO.
 
I am not implying anything, I am stating that having a default position of keeping relevant information secret albeit, a legal position is not helpful but adversarial.
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What about my lawfully transported firearm is in any way relevant to a traffic violation?

I consider your demand that I volunteer information that is useless to you simply because you want to know but which can harm me adversarial.
 
Obviously, I am not afraid that it will jump out and bite me.

But, for officer safety I wouldn't think it would be a huge abridgement of your rights to simply proffer your CCW permit and inform the Cop that you are legally armed.

Because, I can guarantee that if the PO finds out later in the stop, i.e. maybe a problem with license or registration that you are not aware of and you are placed into custody. You are going to have a much more unpleasant experience than if you were more upfront with the Cop.


Do what you think is best, I am just trying to throw some professional advice out there
 
I would think that it's a distinction without a difference in that when I run you your CCW would pop and then I would be irritated by being lied to by ommission
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There are surely many things you are not telling us on this forum. Does that mean you are lying to us?:confused:
 
As a LEO, I'm all in favor of CCW permits and armed persons don't bother me a bit so long as I'm aware of it and know you have a permit. However, during traffic stops or other encounters, I have been known to ask the driver of a vehicle in which there was a weapon, to relinquish it to me for the duration of the stop. I also have asked CCW holders to likewise let me maintain control of their weapon during certain encounters and have never had any problems once I explain myself to them. I've found that, generally, if you treat people like people, they will respond in kind (this doesn't always work but you can generally pick out those types pretty quickly)

I've learned through the years that there are some folks who qualify for CCW permits may not be nice people the fact that they passed the background check not withstanding. I can point to a couple KNOWN cocaine dealers in my area who have CCW's because they have never been caught or have beat a particular felony charge or had it reduced to a misdomeanor. The fact that we (in law enforcement) know that someone is breaking the law is one thing, but knowing it and proving it in court are two very different things. So, just because you have a CCW doesn't automatically mean (to me anyway) that you're an upstanding citizen. You might be a bad guy who hasn't been caught yet and is trying his best to appear legal. I know that's a terrible way to look at it, but at the end of the day, it's important that we all go home.

I heard somewhere that a firearm is much like a parachute in that it's probably the last thing you'll ever need but, if you do need it, you need it real bad and there is nothing else that will take it's place at that particular moment. Not my words but worth passing on none the less.
 
I am not implying anything, I am stating that having a default position of keeping relevant information secret albeit, a legal position is not helpful but adversarial.
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Huh? I'm not keeping information "secret." I'm just not volunteering. I keep my hands on the wheel at 10-and-2, politely, and respectfully cooperate with the police officer. If the officer doesn't ask, I won't volunteer.

I have thought it through, I cannot understand your point of view.
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Let's try this once more, with feeling.

You can't understand that I don't want to end up facing the end of a Glock .40 with a rookie officer yelling and screaming at me, dragging me out of the car, proning me out on the pavement, disarming me, handcuffing me, stuffing me in the back of his cruiser, and then spending 45 minutes there waiting for a supervisor to get there and straighten him out? What don't you understand about my not wanting to be in that situation? Do you think that was fun for my friend? Do you think that didn't happen? Do you not understand that I have had two police officers from the northeast tell me not volunteer such information precisely because in this area the officer might overreact?

That happened to a friend of mine here in MA who notified when he didn't have to. Yet you consistently fail to acknowledge this possibility. Why is that?

Then bagging on me because I live in a state that doesn't allow CCW is childish.
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I'm bagging on you because 1) you have no experience doing traffic stops with concealed carry holders, 2) you have no experience as a private citizen carrying on a concealed carry permit, 3) I have direct experience being stopped while legally carrying on a concealed carry license, and 4) others I know have had very, very negative experiences following your suggested course of action here in MA.

You are a police officer. If you get stopped by another officer, all you have to do is show your badge. You won't get dragged out of the car at gunpoint. I might dragged out of the car if I volunteer my LTC. Do you understand now?

Because, I can guarantee that if the PO finds out later in the stop, i.e. maybe a problem with license or registration that you are not aware of and you are placed into custody. You are going to have a much more unpleasant experience than if you were more upfront with the Cop.
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If the officer tells me to exit the car, then I will tell him: "Certainly, officer. However, I have a license to carry and an I am carrying now. How would you like to proceed?" If he's telling me to get out of the car, then he's probably going to arrest me.

I have told him that I am licensed. I have told him that I will comply and follow his instructions. Please explain to me why that would justify you making it a "much more unpleasant experience" when I have done NOTHING that was even remotely threatening to you? And just how are you going to make it a "much more unpleasant experience" and why would you do that? Just to show that you're the man and I'm not? Badge heavy officers make things worse for their colleagues in the long run.
 
But, for officer safety I wouldn't think it would be a huge abridgement of your rights to simply proffer your CCW permit and inform the Cop that you are legally armed.

Because, I can guarantee that if the PO finds out later in the stop, i.e. maybe a problem with license or registration that you are not aware of and you are placed into custody. You are going to have a much more unpleasant experience than if you were more upfront with the Cop.
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Sorry, what does this have to do with officer safety? Unless you fear that the law abiding CCW holder may snap and kill you how is your safety being compromised? I think this simply comes back to the old LEO standard of Us vs. Them with everyone who doesn't have a badge being Them.

Tell me this, if you pull over an off duty LEO for a minor traffic issue and see his badge do you ask him if he is armed?

If the answer is NO then you are automatically assuming the lawful CCW holder is somehow more of a threat to you than an LEO you do not know. This after all only has to do with lawful CCW holders since someone carrying illegally is certainly not going to come out and volunteer the information and is most likely going to lie to you if asked about it. He is exponentially more of a threat than any law abiding citizen from whom you are looking for meaningless information from.

If I am going to be placed into custody I will volunteer the information. If you wish to punish me for not telling you earlier when I did not have to according to the law then please do. I would welcome the capricious punishment of the officer for doing nothing illegal when it comes time to challenge the incident. Having public admissions from LEOs that they would make things tougher for a law abiding citizen who had not done anything wrong would certainly help the case.
 
mskdgunman said:
However, during traffic stops or other encounters, I have been known to ask the driver of a vehicle in which there was a weapon, to relinquish it to me for the duration of the stop. I also have asked CCW holders to likewise let me maintain control of their weapon during certain encounters
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I don't have a real problem with this if done courteously and professionally. I bet most others don't either. But, if it doesn't show up on a driver's license check (it doesn't in my state), then I think it is unnecessary to run the risk of creating a problem where one doesn't exist.
 
Wagonman:
Obviously, I am not afraid that it will jump out and bite me.

But, for officer safety I wouldn't think it would be a huge abridgement of your rights to simply proffer your CCW permit and inform the Cop that you are legally armed.

Because, I can guarantee that if the PO finds out later in the stop, i.e. maybe a problem with license or registration that you are not aware of and you are placed into custody. You are going to have a much more unpleasant experience than if you were more upfront with the Cop.
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Let me start by saying that in Washington State you are not required to inform of your carry status. Also, I will inform just because I feel getting it out of the way soon is the best. My view on this might change as I have never been pulled over and informed so I am not exactly sure what the experience will be like.

If you are being completely lawful, then how is there a problem? If a cop wants to discriminate against you based on his/her opinion on your LEGAL actions, then he/she should probably be kicked off the force. If they are put in place to uphold the law then what right would they have to discriminate against someone who is embracing the very same law(s)?
 
"""Let's try this once more, with feeling.

You can't understand that I don't want to end up facing the end of a Glock .40 with a rookie officer yelling and screaming at me, dragging me out of the car, proning me out on the pavement, disarming me, handcuffing me, stuffing me in the back of his cruiser, and then spending 45 minutes there waiting for a supervisor to get there and straighten him out? What don't you understand about my not wanting to be in that situation? Do you think that was fun for my friend? Do you think that didn't happen? Do you not understand that I have had two police officers from the northeast tell me not volunteer such information precisely because in this area the officer might overreact?

That happened to a friend of mine here in MA who notified when he didn't have to. Yet you consistently fail to acknowledge this possibility. Why is that?""





So, in other words you are profiling all POs for the actions of one inexperienced officer. I understand that there are bad actors that are Police Officers. However, there are mechanisms to deal with Cops who make bad decisions.








"I'm bagging on you because 1) you have no experience doing traffic stops with concealed carry holders, 2) you have no experience as a private citizen carrying on a concealed carry permit, 3) I have direct experience being stopped while legally carrying on a concealed carry license, and 4) others I know have had very, very negative experiences following your suggested course of action here in MA.

You are a police officer. If you get stopped by another officer, all you have to do is show your badge. You won't get dragged out of the car at gunpoint. I might dragged out of the car if I volunteer my LTC. Do you understand now?"



A close friend of mine was shot and killed on a street stop. However, it would be bad form to do my business at gunpoint on a "unknown" risk t-stop, even though I would be within my rights. Which is analogous to your reason for not informing the officer





"If the officer tells me to exit the car, then I will tell him: "Certainly, officer. However, I have a license to carry and an I am carrying now. How would you like to proceed?" If he's telling me to get out of the car, then he's probably going to arrest me.

I have told him that I am licensed. I have told him that I will comply and follow his instructions. Please explain to me why that would justify you making it a "much more unpleasant experience" when I have done NOTHING that was even remotely threatening to you? And just how are you going to make it a "much more unpleasant experience" and why would you do that? Just to show that you're the man and I'm not? Badge heavy officers make things worse for their colleagues in the long run. "






When you lie even by omission to the Police and get caught any discretion is out the window. It has nothing to to do with being the man or "badge heavy" I can do anything from giving you a verbal warning to making a physical arrest for a minor traffic violation or minor criminal acts.

The only concession I make is that I don't deal with a lot of legit citizens at work so perhaps I am a little adversarial and if I worked in a more civilized enviroment I would agree with your MA buddies and think it was cool to play jailhouse lawyer games on the street. However, on the westside of Chicago if you lie or get cute with the Police you are getting locked up.
 
A. In some states there is no legal obligation to volunteer the information.
B. In all states a PO may ask if a person has any weapons.
What is the problem?
 
to tell or not to tell

I prefer to tell, most officers arent used to honesty. My experience has been positive. I even inform officers that I know that I have my ccw in the vehicle and I usually get a Thanks for letting me know from them. Quickest way to a LEO's bad side is to BS them. Be polite, respectful and keep your hands visible. Dont make any movements until you inform the officer and are given clearance to do so. even if things get goofy and you end up feeling embarrased it is better than getting "the ride" or ventilated in front of your family.so far it has worked. Thank them for the job they do. CW
 
I'll of course be honest if asked, and I certainly won't make any moves to that side without informing the officer. But other than that, no, I feel absolutely no obligation to tell.

I could absolutely care less if an officer finds out subsequently that I had a gun and didn't tell him. Now, I may care if he/she acts like a moron and treats me poorly because of it, but why would it matter that you find out after the fact that a peaceable person carried a firearm?

I realize it is a perilous job, and that officers prefer disclosure. But they're also (at least initially) on the strong end of the the authority scale, and I think it is absurd to ask someone who you have authority over to not only do as asked, but to go out of their way to make you feel comfortable (thus providing you with more potential motivation to treat them unjustly).
 
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