So the latest Mosin "group".

Duze,
Have to be kinda careful with Mo in some areas.

He's 14 & weigh 23 pounds.
If he tries to do too much in any one session that Mosin, even with a pad, will beat him up to the point where he'll be getting tired & worried more about the recoil than the trigger & sights.

I suggested minimum 30-round sessions based on that.
If he can handle more, great, but that threshold would have to be determined by him.

Once he realizes he's losing ground and/or concentration, that'd be the point to stop.
An all-day shoot with his Mosin would not be a good idea. :)

Denis
 
There's absolutely no way I can do that. My dad would laugh in my face if I asked him that. 19/20 rounds was kinda stretching it for me today.


Gah, denis, I'll take the .22 out too. :)

In the mean time's meantime I will be working to buy a spam can or two. I'm getting excited just thinking of hearing the air rush In when I open the can. :D

Also, before I forget. I wanted to run some stuff by you guys. When I clean the bore from corrosive primers, would Hoppes #9 work as well as just flushing the bore?
I've had good results with it and patches. Recently, I've also been flushing it with soapy water and running some patches through it, but I might stop because I'm afraid it might get into the wood and warp it.

Oh! And lastly, how should I practice with the .22 and K-31 and Mosin from now on? Field positions with the .22 and bench/prone with the Mosin/K-31?
 
ok may i recommend getting a 7.62x54r tin of ammo and just do an ALL DAY shoot?
Click to expand...
at the risk of starting to sound like a serious know-it-all-armchair-general-operator-sealswccrangerdeltarecon-tactical-range-officer-instructor...

... I say that is the last thing that the OP needs. all day shoots are hard enough on seasoned shooters with light recoiling weapons, no less a new shooter working with a 10 pound high recoiling warhorse. lots of practice is the best way to build skills but not all at once. after a certain point you're just straining your eyes, wearing your gun out and wasting ammo.
 
Cleaning's already been addressed.
Roughly 43,000 different opinions.
I don't toss water down the bore because it's inconvenient & does have a chance of getting into the stock.
Others do & it works for them.

On the .22, forget about field positions yet.

Shoot off a stable rest at 75 & when you can hold under 3 inches, take it out to 100 yards.

You're still learning trigger & sight picture with irons.
Once you can consistently produce 4 inches or less at 100 yards off a rest with that Ruger, you can move on to field positions.

Until you also learn the K31 from the bench, don't try prone.
Same for the Mosin.
They're not light kickers, and if you jump into prone with them too soon you can teach yourself bad habits that'll be hard to break later.
Denis
 
He needs to shoot more, doing maybe a few hours each day at the range to up his experience, as a lot of us have stated its not a starter gun. he really should do more shoots with the 22 he was talking about

personally my dad got me on the 30 calibers at that age, some bad memories there....

Another thought
if he could afford a hariss bipod, it adds weight and stability to front, but need a swivel stud to mount....so maybe another stock (lots of options now on those and it wont perma mod)

He could also look at attaching a clamp muzzle break
- mines helped stabilize the front a bit for my mosin
 
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He needs to shoot more, doing maybe a few hours each day at the range to up his experience, as a lot of us have stated its not a starter gun. he really should do more shoots with the 22 he was talking about
Click to expand...
also keep in mind that 22lr isn't exactly easy to come by these days. I haven't seen a box in person in over 6 months and that stuff was $40 per 400 round brick.
 
I posted this in one of your other threads, it bears repeating.

You can practice at home, with the Mosin. Draw a circle on a post-it note and stick it on the wall at the other side of the room. With an empty rifle, use the fundamentals you were taught at Appleseed and mount the rifle, align the sights and break the shot. Take your time, don't worry about working the bolt, or the next shot, or anything else.

Go slow. Pay attention to where the sights were when the sear released. This is referred to as "Calling the shot" and understanding it is important to improving. With proper focus and practice, you should know if the sights were properly aligned.

CLICK: That was a little left and low
CLICK: That was low
CLICK: That was a little high
CLICK: That was good
CLICK: That was a little left

etc.

When I was competing in service rifle, the standing position kicked my butt. When I started my scores were normally 150-155 out of 200. A year later, I was in the 180s regularly (not perfect, but solid NRA "expert" level shooting), and the prime source of the improvement was dry fire practice as I described. I still had room to improve when age started to catch up to me and my eyes had too much trouble seeing the sights, so I stopped competing.

sight alignment, trigger control.
sight alignment, trigger control.
sight alignment, trigger control.

practice, practice, practice.
 
I'm getting mixed signals here.

Should I or should I not practice in pprone/field positions?

Should I not benchrest? Or should I?

Should I slinging or not? I have a leather GI sling that I can loop up with on my 10/22.

I expect to order a spam can this weeked. I get payed today/tomorrow.

I'm looking into getting a range membership to an actual range. Not just shooting hay bales from prone bagged down at 100 yards like I've been doing.

Should I get some tech sights? I heard those improve accuracy a bit, I have Buckhorn sights on my 10/22 that I'm working with.

Some guidance would be appreciated.

As for calling my shots. I'm not even remotely good at that. I hold the sights on the target as best I can. But there's no way I'm GOING to know where my shot hits with a Mosin until I work on it some more. Even then it's likely to be all over the plaace. I could try with the 10/22 but calling the shot never really helped/made sense to me. A fellow about my age helped me with ball and dummy and calling my shots at appleseed. I think I called 2 that were maybe close to where I was hitting.

As for slinging up with a Loop sling. I haven't found much on how to do that with the Leather sling but I think I'm doing it right. I don't even have to detach the back of the sling, really.. I just grab the sling turn it around and put it through my arm.

But yes, I will continue to dry fire practice. I don't plan on competing in anything but I do want to shoot better. There's not a lot of rifle competitions around here. To be quite honest, the CMP just confuses me. I wouldn't even begin to know how to get started doing them. But I digress.

If this has already been addressed, sorry, but it gets a bit confusing when I get contradicting opinions on the matter.
 
From what I've read of this thread:

1. Shoot from a stable benchrest (where possible). AVOID field positions for now, and try to stay away from prone. In my experience, a stable benchrest will give you the best chance at repeatability. When I shoot from a benchrest, I have certain muscle memory that comes streaming back immediately, that I don't get shooting in other positions.

2. If you are shooting benchrest, a sling should not be involved.

3. If it were me, I would avoid changing sights, lest you have to start back at the beginning, relearning sight picture (and having to zero new sights). If you are having problems with your sight picture (due to the sights themselves), then yes, I would change them.

4. Remember your 6 o'clock hold. There are a ton of things on the internet to say Mosins shoot high, and the little bit that I've shot of mine states the same. I get better groups (irrespective of location on target) with a 6 hold, then with a center bullseye hold.

5. Calling shots is IMO an advanced skill. I'll turn 30 this year, and I've honestly never heard of doing that until this calendar year, on this forum. I definitely understand the value it adds to shooting, but I think you need to be much more comfortable and confident with your Mosin abilities before you start trying to call your shots.

6. Dry-fire practice is paramount. When I recently got my M1, I spent weeks learning the trigger and sight picture with dry-fire practice before I had a chance to put rounds down range. If you know when your trigger is going to break, it goes a long way with dealing with recoil and nerves (if those are an issue for you.)

7. Keep practicing with your .22.
 
slinging, and firing position depend on what YOU as a shooter are comfortable with and find useful

bench is easy to target shoot, but if your hunting , the prone and kneeling position help you get some experience in that area

overall you need to stabilize the firearm and fire it into a target and get close groups while being in the X or center of target, this is the basics of target shooting

and as some have said 22 rimfire is getting scarce (and just when i wanted that ati storm gauver)

there are plenty of small caliber firerams to look into if the mosin still is pounding you

a carbine (rifle that shoots pistol ammo) is another option to look into sig and glock i believe make a few

there is also the ever popular 223 that is light and wont hammer you anywhere near as much as the 7.62x54r (savage axis 223 is a good starter gun IMO)

But what you have to take away is that:
-you need to do more shoots (enough that you gain experience without injuring yourself)

-feed the gun

- shooting position and posture are based on what you need to accomplish
(tactical, hunting, target, competitions, ..... ect)

-dry fire for practice (there are fake rounds that you can practice loading and cycling rounds , i highly recommend them)


But another thing to think on is
what purpose will this rifle serve and what do you intend to do with it?

i had my mosin for a while, until i decided i wanted more out of the gun and then sporterized it in two stages (1 non gunsmith) and (1 with a gunsmith adding a scope). these are things to think on

mosins are good shooters and are great historic relics, but they can be adapted to more competitive standards if that's the road you want to take.

standard or modified a gun is meant to serve its owners purpose.
 
if you are looking to establish an ACCURACY baseline then you should be shooting from a bench with sandbags, that removes as much user error as possible from the equation.

if you are attempting to establish a MARKSMANSHIP baseline then you need to fire from field positions(Prone, sitting, kneeling, and standing).

right now you are still playing around with the ammo trying to find what is best for your gun. if you are shooting free hand then that is going to completely mess with the groups and you aren't going to have the slightest clue what works best in your gun. that is why many here are telling you to shoot from a benchrest. if you had already figured out what ammunition shoots best then we would tell you to go ahead and start venturing out from behind the shooting bench in into field positions like what you would be expected to shoot from for 4H, FFA, boy scouts, CMP or other group you may or may not be a part of.
 
nate_g_2003 said:
5. Calling shots is IMO an advanced skill. I'll turn 30 this year, and I've honestly never heard of doing that until this calendar year, on this forum. I definitely understand the value it adds to shooting, but I think you need to be much more comfortable and confident with your Mosin abilities before you start trying to call your shots.
Click to expand...
I disagree. You are looking at the sights while you pull the trigger, you should know where the sights were pointing when the shot broke.

Without it, this is less useful:

nate_g_2003 said:
6. Dry-fire practice is paramount. When I recently got my M1, I spent weeks learning the trigger and sight picture with dry-fire practice before I had a chance to put rounds down range. If you know when your trigger is going to break, it goes a long way with dealing with recoil and nerves (if those are an issue for you.)
Click to expand...

Awareness of the sights in relation to the target is a critical part of this. Without knowing where the shot broke, you can not notice bad habits, and end up reinforcing them.

Mosin-Marauder said:
The K-31, I've decided, will be my main target gun.
Click to expand...
Good choice. Probably shoots better than the Mosin, and the surplus ammo, while more expensive is excellent.
 
Forgot:


Mosin-Marauder said:
Should I get some tech sights? I heard those improve accuracy a bit, I have Buckhorn sights on my 10/22 that I'm working with.
Click to expand...

The longer sight radius should help you shoot better, and a rear peep sight is much easier to properly align than the stock 10-22 sights.

Mosin-Marauder said:
As for slinging up with a Loop sling. I haven't found much on how to do that with the Leather sling but I think I'm doing it right. I don't even have to detach the back of the sling, really.. I just grab the sling turn it around and put it through my arm.
Click to expand...

Army video on rifle marksmanship, covers the 1907 sling at about the 3:00 mark: http://youtu.be/cTsUaujfiB8?t=3m

Another video, demonstrating the "Turner" sling: http://youtu.be/toGKvlY-Qk0

The "Turner" is a high quality 1907 sling made by Turner Saddlery. To be clear, I am not suggesting that you go out and buy a $60 Turner Saddlery sling (Or $70 Les Tam), just explaining what the guy in the video is talking about. When he says "Turner", substitute in your mind "1907".
 
Mo,
As repeatedly stated, you are not ready to be doing any field positions.

You don't know how to reliably place your shots in the same place from the most solid of all shooting methods- the bench.

You don't know where your gun shoots, because you don't have enough grounding in technique to make it go in the same place shot after shot.

You don't know what it's zeroed at, same reason.

You don't know what shoots well in it, same reason.

You've fired about 150 rounds through your Mosin, at all sorts of ranges, various targets, and with various ammunition.
You've bounced around without ever standardizing on a given set of factors in the shooting equation, and in doing that you have yet to establish whether the results you've gotten are you or the gun.

You get inconsistent results because you apply inconsistent methods.

Back to the old computer GI/GO, remember?
When it comes to data input, Garbage In=Garbage Out.

A sling will do you absolutely no good whatever AT THIS POINT IN YOUR LEARNING TO SHOOT.

Time after time we've told you to get the basics down, but you won't listen.
Time after time you've been told to, AT THIS POINT, eliminate variables in learning, not add them.

When people tell you to try field positions, that's a valid part of overall riflemanship that translates into both competition and hunting.
You are lightyears from being able to do either.
BASICS!!!!!
Stick to the bench.

Field positions come AFTER you achieve personal competency.
Field positions come AFTER you find a load that shoots consistently well in your Mosin.
Field positions come AFTER you've been able to determine where your rifle is zeroed.
Field positions come AFTER you get that rifle correctly zeroed (which it most likely is not now) so you CAN use your shooting skills (which you don't have yet) to consistently place bullet after bullet in a rough circle inside 3-4 inches at 100 yards (which you can't) at or very close to the aiming point where you want those bullets to go (which you also can't do).

Your biggest enemy here in learning is yourself.
You are extremely impatient.

You seem (not meaning to embarrass you) to be more enamored with just blowing off ammunition & tinkering with your Mosin than in really learning to shoot it.
In doing both, before establishing basic repeatable skills, you are not only wasting time, ammo, and money; you're teaching yourself bad habits that'll be hard, if not impossible, to un-learn later in life.

With virtually no shooting training or experience, you just don't buy an old surplus rifle that's subject to as many vagaries of storage, refurbishment, and overall unknown condition problems as the Mosins embody as your first gun, run 150 rounds of mixed loads through it at various distances & under varying conditions, and expect to be doing advanced (and that's what they are) shooting positions & modifications to the thing.

You've been advised to learn 100 yards & iron sights with that .22.
You're fixated on the Mosin.

Since you persist in focusing on the Mosin, you've been advised to standardize your distance, your shooting position, your ammunition, and your targets.
The benefits & reasoning behind all of those should be quite obvious.

But, you're still trying to bounce around with adding more shooting positions BEFORE EVEN LEARNING THE MOST STABLE & MOST BASIC (NOT TO MENTION THE EASIEST) SHOOTING POSITION FOR LEARNING BOTH HOW TO SHOOT IN GENERAL AND HOW TO SHOOT YOUR RIFLE IN PARTICULAR!

FIRST THINGS FIRST!

Get a spam can of 147s.
Stick to a solid rest on a bench at 100 yards with the black bulls already discussed.

Fire more than 10 rounds per session.

Don't even think about slings & prone & coyotes till you've gone through that entire can, at the bench.

By then, if you concentrate on the basics, you should have an excellent start on your own skills, you should know where the gun is shooting, you should be able to zero it, and you MIGHT even then begin to consider whether it's worth tinkering further with.

Until YOU establish a solid learning platform & skill set IN YOURSELF, there's little real progress you're going to make with that rifle, and thinking bedding & shimming are magic cures to enable you to cheat the learning process is not going to work.

Those gun mods are not automatic guarantees of improved rifle performance. Not all rifles need them to shoot well; they may end up adding only a very slight increase in overall performance.

And believe me on this- if you yourself can't shoot well enough to take full advantage of any improvements that might result (I say MIGHT, because in tinkering with bedding & shimming it's quite possible you may actually reduce performance), then you've done yourself no good & only wasted more time.

Consider what you've already done as mere familiarization with your Mosin.
Now, it's time to get serious & LEARN to shoot it.

You've been told how to go about it repeatedly, by people here & in PMs you & I've exchanged.
Continually asking the same "But, what if I...?" and "But, can I...?" questions isn't helping you.

Listen.
Focus.
Concentrate.
Learn.

And- no more "OK, I'm being stupid again" stuff.
You are not stupid, just extremely impatient.
Denis
 
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A beginning shooter should learn how to shoot irons first, before going to optics.

Calling your shot, will force you to follow through on the shot, and will help keep your eyes open when the shot breaks.

Get a bore guide for your Mosin...but make sure the cleaning rod is long enough {the Finnish M91 barrels are longer than the M91-30's}. I usually cloth patch the bores of my Mosins, with diluted Simple Green Solution {WITH EYE PROTECTION}, until the patches come out clean --- then a dry patch, put bore guide in, 6 to 10 back an forth passes with a bronze core brush soaked with a copper cleaning {Sweets} solution. Repeat again. wipe off rod an brush with Simple Green. Repeat again with a dry brush, and then clean cloth patch out the crud three times. Use 3 cotton patches soaked with Hoppes #9, then 3 dry patches --- then one oil patch --- and one dry patch.

Once you've sighted in your rifle, and you're familiar with the trigger pull...get off the bench, and learn to shoot offhand. Shoot three shots, then go back to the 22 or air rifle; while letting the big gun cool.

Learn to use triangular bone support, instead of full muscle support.

When you go home {make sure the gun is unloaded an no live ammo nearby}...do 75 reps a night, by bringing the gun up to your shoulder, so you can build the proper muscle sets.

Offhand shooting...is one method that keeps a shooter from getting bored about the shooting sports.

Accept the wobble of the muzzle as it crosses the target. Don't try to snatch the shot as the muzzle crosses the target. As time goes on...the wobble radius will get smaller.

Breathe and relax your shoulders. Take up trigger slack on the first stage, then press the trigger straight back and follow through.

Starting off shooting while your young...really helps. Don't ingrain bad shooting habits. Think about getting a shooting coach.

If you have trouble shooting offhand....a shooting stick will help steady your shots.

At the start of the shooting session...take about 15 minutes of warm-up with a 22 or air rifle, before moving up to the big gun.

If you start to feel tired...take a break or call it a day.

If the Mosin jams while feeding a round into the chamber --- STOP --- don't try to force the bolt home. One former RSO {range safety officer} at our range {AGC at Marriottsville} did that one time, and had an OOB {out of battery detonation} with the round pointed down into the lower receiver. The bolt somehow detonated the primer...sending the bullet thru and out the lower wooden forearm and thru his hand. I've had similar kinds of jams with my Mosins.

Needless to say...be careful!!!
 
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Time after time we've told you to get the basics down, but you won't listen.
Click to expand...

Denis, as I'm sure you are aware there are thousands of members here and each one has 2 unique opinions about any given topic. The op is getting advice from dozens of users, not just from you. he is listening, intently but unfortunately he is getting way too many conflicting sets of instructions on how to best continue his training and education in the shooting arts.

he's got guys like you and me, who have been shooting long enough to know what is detrimental and what's not.

then he's got the guys that shoot about ten rounds a year(usually just to make sure their rifles are zeroed before hunting season.

then he's got the guys that post simple 1 sentence instructions that make no sense to anyone but themselves for the simple reason of getting their post counts up.

then he's got guys who don't understand just what Mosin-Marauder's circumstances are, what stage of his training he's in and offer advice out of context.

then there are the guys that learned a certain way and they are going to offer advice to that effect because it was how they learned.

I agree with you on much of your points, benchrest until he gets his skills down and knows what his rifle is capable of in the best of conditions. I've seen M-M's groups with his K31 and they appear to be much better than the mosin leading me to believe that his skills, at least in short spurts, are greatly improved and he may be getting to the point that he can start working from real world shooting positions, as I'm sure he will be required to do as part of his 4H club. however I will continue to say that he shoud do so either once he has established a good accuracy load for his mosin or while using his K31 or 22LR, although given the poor availability of 22, it may be in his best interest to use the K31.

EDIT!
there should be no shooting free hand, shooting ALL DAY, no Shooting from the hip, no calling your shots, no timed drills, and no further modifications of the rifle, at least for the time being.

a sling is not going to help from a shooting bench unless he is shooting elbows down with no sandbags which may be a good for transitioning from bench rest to field positions but not something that is needed at this juncture.

Another Edit: M-M
have you spent any time in dry fire? although it's no substitute for live fire, it is a good way to work on trigger control.
 
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Can I just say, that Mo is on the right path here. I have seen plenty of other shooters do much much worse, at closer than 100 yrds.
I know, I know, 99.9999% of those who post here all get 1/10th of a moa on moving targets, in the middle of a hurricane, while a 7.5 earthquake is rattling the ground around us, at distances of no less than 400 yards.

Seriously though, don't feel too bad that your Mosin is getting a 4 inch group at 100 yards. Practice isn't always about how many rounds you shoot downrange. Its about practicng the fundamentals the right way every time.

I used to spend an entire day at the range and blow thru ammo like it was nothing. Cause it was all pre-panic and ammo cost half of what it is now. But even still, I can get as much enjoyment out of shooting two or three clips out of my Garand, and maybe 5 magazines worth thru my AR.

My accuracy with the Garand on iron sights, is just a little worse than your group, about 5 inch group with one way off flyer. But the entire group can be covered with my hand so I am satisfied. You should be pleased with your groups but dont beat yourself up over them. Your skills will continue to increase.


"And which one of YOU was a marksman at 10?"
Ned Stark
 
Ta,
Fully agree with you, especially on much of the conflicting advice, which is why I keep trying to whittle it down to a core set of principles for Mo. :)

He just wants too much, too fast, and seems to keep on asking the same questions hoping he'll get the answer he wants, instead of the answer he needs. :)

Nobody expects him to be a proficient marksman yet (except him).
Some of us (including you) are just trying to get him to stick to learning how to move the family car around the WalMart parking lot without running into light-posts before going NASCAR.

He chose a Studebaker & wants to do Formula One with it, with no real foundation in either obsolete cars in general or how to drive anything at all.
Denis
 
true, bit it can still be difficult to tell the difference between what is good advice and what is poor advice.

on one hand you have guys claiming that spending an entire day that the range with a 400 round can of ammo will turn him into Vasille Zaitzev or Simo Hayha, and other guys telling him to go slow and steady and it's hard to determine just what approach to take and how fast he should be improving.

In the Navy I saw a number of shooters, some had never touched a gun before and qualified as sharpshooters and experts with the M16 while I had been around guns since adolescence and I was completely humbled, I barely qualified. now I can shoot a pretty steady Expert Score with my AR15s but it took a lot of practice and a lot of self education, in my case I attended several of the workshops with other sailors who wanted to qualify but were nervous and needed moral support and even went so far as to take some of the online prerequisite courses for small arms instructors. due to my occupation I would have never been allowed to become a small arms instructor(perhaps a good thing) but I did it anyway because it taught me a great deal about how to train myself and others.

to this day it is difficult for me to expect better than 2 inch groups with most of my rifles and I see guys that have been around guns since breakfast outshooting me. I also see the guys that just recently started out wondering why the other newbs are improving so much faster than they are so I can understand a want to better themselves and what may seem like impatience can also be interpreted as a confused response to a new situation where they have no baseline to compare with.
 
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