So the latest Mosin "group".

M

Mosin-Marauder

New member
I was shooting the Mosin today at 100 yards. I fired 10 rounds and I didn't do too hot (of course that's nothing new). It's better than I was doing. Not by much. They were shot with 147 grain surplus rounds. I think I'm going to start hand loading for it, as soon as I get some dies and some loads worked up. I've also discovered there's a pressure point at the end of the barrel channel that I was thinking of putting some cork in just to see if it would help. I was also think about shimming the action with aluminum or brass shims. I'm not sure how to go about doing that though. If possible, I'd like to get it shooting at least a 4" group at 100 yards. What I don't get, however, is how I can go from putting two shots in a 1 inch bullseye at 30 yards to putting 3-4 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Would the trigger spring and firing pin spring I recently installed have anything to do with it? If I did the above (corking and shimming and hand loading) would that help? At this point I'm willing to do whatever I can to make this rifle shoot centralized groups and not erratic groups all over the paper. Your help and advice is appreciated. Thank you.

 
the thing to understand is that you're never going to have a perfect shoot put into a perfectly straight line. to put it in perspective, unless your muzzle is the exact same height as the bullseye and your muzzle is perfectly alligned left and right with the bullseye then you are shooting at an angle. if your aim is off at close range by a single degree then it's not very noticeable but the farther out you move that target the farther out of position that bullet is going to travel with that same 1 degree deviation.

there are also things to consider like poor ammunition quality, muzzle gouging, bullet tumble, wind drift, atmospheric resistance(varies with temperature, humidity, elevation ETC) and a half a million other things that can be throwing off your shot. I wouldn't be particularly worried if I was you. sometimes you just have a bad day at the range and other times you can't not cloverleaf your groups. just keep practicing. and I am quite sure that if you do start reloading your groups will improve greatly as long as you really do your part and load for consistency.
 
If you're shooting a 1" group at 30 yards, then your group at 60 yards will be 2", and your group at 90 yards will be 3". That's just how angles work. Given that aiming is easier at 30 yards because it's closer, and there you go.
 
What are the groups like that you shoot with your scoped 260 rem. If they are like that it may well be your mechanics you deploy to shoot. If that is a tight group then it could well be the gun your shooting.
 
3-4 1/2" groups with a reworked MN with surplus ball is about all you should 'expect' and pretty good shooting with that equipment. Personally I wouldn't spend the time and trouble to cork, shim, or such. Some MNs will shoot better no doubt but the rifles vary in bore size, bore condition, crown, chamber, etc etc. Just the luck of the the draw- enjoy your MN for what it is-an eclectic group of design features put together in wartime conditions with a lot of history thrown in. You can pretend to be V. Zaytzev crawling around the rubble of Stalingrad with your MN- it's all good. Just don't expect groups like those obtainable from a modern well manufactured rifle built under conditions of quality control.
 
Don't automatically expect reloading your own ammo to improve the accuracy of the rifle.
It takes a lot of reloading patience and skill to make rifle rounds that are as good as most factory rounds, let alone better.
Reloading can, indeed, make superior ammo, but it's not at all guaranteed to do so.
If you want to truly find out if your shooting skills are improving, use equipment that is up to the job.
If you don't know if it's you or your gun, it's like chasing your tail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP_IN8PIvEo
 
You still have not fired that gun enough to establish a reliable baseline, as we've discussed.

You still don't know if it's the rifle, or if it's you.

30 yards tells you what the gun does at 30 yards, and it CAN be extrapolated further out to give you a rough idea of the group sizes it MAY produce at 100 yards.

But- The only reliable way to see what it does at 100 is to shoot it at 100.
I'd work with it some more AS-IS, to get that repeatable baseline established, before adding more of the variables we've also discussed.

You seem to be showing a consistent horizontal dispersion, so the spread is not from the barrel heating up.
I'm not persuaded, AT THIS POINT, that any of the things you're suggesting to do to that rifle would cure that.

I'm thinking it's you.

If you had vertical stringing, either you're having difficulty maintaining a consistent sight picture re elevation, or it'd be the barrel heating up.

If the group was showing a totally erratic pattern with no consistency at all, and printing randomly in a large area, could be either you with sight picture, trigger jerking, or the gun with a bad bore.

If showing a consistent horizontal stringing, most likely you, in not getting a consistent sight alignment between the front post & the rear notch.

Given that, I'd strongly suggest you work with the gun further & concentrate on sight picture and trigger. Further being 300-400 rounds, not all in one session. What you show here isn't bad, but I think you can do better, and without messing with the rifle.

Also try a black bull of about the same size. Orange doesn't give you the clearly-defined edges at distance that black does, when not using an optic.

Honest- you really have not put enough rounds through that gun at 100 yards to decide you need to be extensively tinkering with it yet.
Denis
 
What kind of rest for the rifle are you using? I think my Mosins like a firm hold.

Weigh each ammo round for a consistent weight. Also...roll the ammo rounds on a flat table, in order to spot any badly seated bullet wobble.
 
. I've also discovered there's a pressure point at the end of the barrel channel that I was thinking of putting some cork in just to see if it would help. I was also think about shimming the action with aluminum or brass shims. I'm not sure how to go about doing that though.
Click to expand...

Lots of info here:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...port-Shooting-quot-Book&p=2393834#post2393834

That is what I did to mine, plus good quality handloads:

mosin_pu_handloads.jpg
 
I'm going to get some 100 yard targets and continue shooting at 100 yards. I'll try and keep posting how imndoing/if I'm improving if you'd folks would have time for that. I'm going to continue using surplus ammo. I might try my luck with commercial sometime, though.
 
Remember previous discussions about variables, Mo.
Sticking to surplus & working on your technique will be a good idea.

Did you ever take your .22 out to 100 yards with irons?
Denis
 
Just adjust the elevation.

Once zeroed, you can work with that a bit to see if you replicate the same groups you're doing with the Mosin at 100 yards.

If you can produce relatively tight & CONSISTENT groups with the .22 at 100, it can help you with the Mosin at the same distance.

Can also help you determine if the larger Mosin groups are you or the gun.
The .22 isn't intended to be a long range sniper, but there's no real reason it couldn't be used at 100 yards with irons.
Denis
 
Lets say your surplus rounds are .310" bullets. Lets say your Mosin slugs out at .313" which could be typical for the batch of Mosins that came in the batch you bought. Lets say you have a pitted barrel. These kind of things will mess with your accuracy and cause variations of accuracy with each outing and large temperature gains. They are notorious for being full of copper. You will never get out all the copper as those pits are bottomless. But you can get enough out to help the accuracy. If you reload, buy some Speer Hot-Cor British rounds at least .311" and make sure your die doesn't have the .308 stem. Once you shoot it, then use the RCBS .3110 neck sizer and you then should notice a nicer grouping after you ladder up the rounds. Lets say your rounds are not impressive at 100 yards. They could be great at 200 or 300 yards. Some rounds will wobble and take a bit to settle out. One of the fun things about Mosins is waiting until you find them in the 80-90 dollar range and buy another one. Look for the Tula M91/30 hex receiver and some of those in the early to mid 1930 ish era did pretty good. But you never know. That's what makes buying them fun.
 
What are you using for a target, that 2" spot?

You may have better luck shooting at something larger. It sounds counter intuitive, but I always found it easier to shoot a small group with irons if the target is large enough to make out more clearly, and black. The contrast with a white background makes it easier to center.

If you have a printer, I attached a couple target image files to this old thread: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5135589&postcount=25

Print them on a standard 8 1/2 X 11 sheet of paper, and use a 6:00 hold (I assume they taught you that at Appleseed, if not, just ask), I expect your groups will improve.
 
I couldn't tell from the image how big the dot is.

About a 4-6 inch black bull would be good.
Mine are 8 inches & could still work fine smaller.
Denis
 
I agree, at 100 yards that little orange spot is pretty hard to get a fix on even for the best marksmen with great eyesight. a cheap thing to try might be colored paper plates.
 
Mo,
One thing to consider, based on what I've found myself, is that the size of the round & solidly-colored bull can make a difference in group sizes, by virtue of either making it too small to see or too large to aim at precisely in relation to the sights.

The too-small part is obvious.

The too-big part may need some explanation.

First, DO NOT try to go for a center hold right now.
The center of the bull is harder for the eye to determine with consistency (and remember consistency is what you're going for) than using a six o/clock hold with the bottom edge of the black target on top of the front sight.

Important to understand that, at this stage of the game in learning to shoot accurately and in determining whether your larger groups are you or the gun, the goal is not merely to "hit the target", but to HIT IT IN THE SAME PLACE, or as close as you can, on each shot fired.

You settle for aiming at the elusive center of the black bull, you'll be settling for lesser accuracy, which will still leave you wondering if it's you or the rifle.

In determining bull's-eye size, if you use a "dot" that's too big, you have a less precise aiming point.
A dot with outer edges that come closer to the same width as your front blade (in your sight picture), will generally work better in that regard than one whose outer diameter/edges extend way beyond your front sight edges.
The smaller dot is easier to align the blade's edges with & center the blade between the outer dot edges.

A paper plate is too big.

You can buy standard 100-yard black rifle target bulls in volume off Amazon & they're a decent size, not expensive, and can be re-used by taping over the holes.
They are standardized for competition & used in matches all over.

A hint- to keep a SOLID black dot entirely black with clear definition, don't cover it up with white tape as you continually tape over bullet holes.
You'll eventually lose the black definition, more so each time you add white to the black.

Either buy black stickies, or color the white tape over with a Magic Marker or something similar.
I go through targets like water in my job, so I look for the cheapest method of dealing with them. I buy in bulk packs, use simple masking tape to cover holes, blacked out with a Sharpie.

Buy in bulk, re-use the same targets, get the right size target, stay CONSISTENT with the same clearly-defined BLACK target.

If you progress to a point where you're shooting well enough with your Mosin using standardized 100-yard rifle bulls, you can drop down to smaller standardized 25-yard black pistol bulls & use them at 100.
14-year-old eyes should be able to pull that off.
NOT YET, THOUGH!!!!!!
Go with the bigger rifle bulls.

One important thing that I'm continually emphasizing with you is eliminating variables.
Don't be bouncing around shooting at different distances.
Don't be switching back & forth with different targets (red, black, different sizes, printed, stickies, drawings, etc.).
Don't be rotating different ammunition (surplus, commercial, different bullet weights).
Don't be monkeying around with shims, whims, and corks. Not yet.
Denis
 
I'll have to start shooting 182.6 grain Yugo stuff when I run out of 147 grain Russian Stuff (4 rounds left). I'll try to post a picture of the next group soon. I'll have to get some 100 yard targets first.
 
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