If I’m the BG I will be watching your hands telling you what I want !! If you don’t shut up and listen OR make a fast move with those hands I’m watching I’ll send a couple down range to see if that helps you comply…. On the other hand if I was the good guy I would have to draw .. Practice will help but you won’t know the outcome till it happens . My Opinion..
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So the bandit has the drop on you, so what
- Thread starter kraigwy
- Start date
This link is posted in another thread but it is an example of a succesfull DGU even when the bandit had "the drop" on the intended victim.
http://www.dailypress.com/news/crime/dp-nws-nn-crime-spree,0,7992127.story
http://www.dailypress.com/news/crime/dp-nws-nn-crime-spree,0,7992127.story
Double Naught Spy
New member
Here is a neat study showing how fast reaction can actually be...
http://prism.bham.ac.uk/pdf_files/Welchman_et_al_PRSB_2010.pdf
Turns out, initiated action can be slower than reaction.
Once again, context is critical. Are you talking about actual action and reaction or successful completion of action and reaction where the tasks being performed by not be comparable? Action may be faster than reaction by definition, but not necessarily by application in regard to completion or success of tasks. If the time it takes for the action to start and run to completion is longer than the time of the reaction from start to completion, then the action can be beat by the reaction. The time to complete the action may be much longer than the reaction because the action may involve more tasks, tasks of longer duration, or tasks covering a greater distance.
http://prism.bham.ac.uk/pdf_files/Welchman_et_al_PRSB_2010.pdf
Turns out, initiated action can be slower than reaction.
Action is faster then Reaction, I just don't know how to measure it.
Once again, context is critical. Are you talking about actual action and reaction or successful completion of action and reaction where the tasks being performed by not be comparable? Action may be faster than reaction by definition, but not necessarily by application in regard to completion or success of tasks. If the time it takes for the action to start and run to completion is longer than the time of the reaction from start to completion, then the action can be beat by the reaction. The time to complete the action may be much longer than the reaction because the action may involve more tasks, tasks of longer duration, or tasks covering a greater distance.
Right, to add greater time to the completion of the reactive task that otherwise might be shorter than the active task, things like misdirection can be used. The bad guy with the drawn gun isn't apt to make the decision to pull the trigger if he doesn't realize an action has been started against him.Watch this classic misdirection ...
Dusty Rivers
New member
probably still going to shoot you
Even if you beat the BG their gun will probably go off while it is still pointed at you.
Not sure how I would react. Lots to think about even setting in front of a computer without any stress. One does what one can when necessary.
Best to not have a predetermined course of action because of so many variables. Consider all ahead of time, but let your interpretation of the situation determine your actions would be my advice to myself.
Even if you beat the BG their gun will probably go off while it is still pointed at you.
Not sure how I would react. Lots to think about even setting in front of a computer without any stress. One does what one can when necessary.
Best to not have a predetermined course of action because of so many variables. Consider all ahead of time, but let your interpretation of the situation determine your actions would be my advice to myself.
I'm going to hazard a couple guesses and use that guesses as premises.
1) There are a lot more armed robberies than there are murders committed during a robbery
This tells me that most armed assailants are not committed to actually pulling the trigger until they realize that you are defending yourself in a means that is likely to cause them harm. So I see the OP's point.
With that being said... you know the saying about if your only tool is a hammer everything looks like a nail. There is a danger to carrying a gun in that you begin to look at it as your only tool (I hope it is not). There are many situations where going for your weapon first is not the best course of action. Contact distance is likely one of them
1) There are a lot more armed robberies than there are murders committed during a robbery
This tells me that most armed assailants are not committed to actually pulling the trigger until they realize that you are defending yourself in a means that is likely to cause them harm. So I see the OP's point.
With that being said... you know the saying about if your only tool is a hammer everything looks like a nail. There is a danger to carrying a gun in that you begin to look at it as your only tool (I hope it is not). There are many situations where going for your weapon first is not the best course of action. Contact distance is likely one of them
NorthernBlue
New member
Ok....let's try this again. Here is a link to a video showing what happens in a situation as we are describing. Guy has four cops at his door, guy has gun at side, guy shoots two officers prior to/simultaneously being shot himself.
http://bluelivesmatter.blue/jeffrey-cave-suicide-cop/
http://bluelivesmatter.blue/jeffrey-cave-suicide-cop/
Double Naught Spy
New member
I don't really think that is the sort of situation anybody here was describing.
Okay, it's been established long ago that human reaction time to visual stimulus is about 1/4 second. This is the absolute minimum time that you have to make your disabling shot.
That's not the final answer. The person confronting you may have "extenuating circumstances" of being drunk or drugged, being uncertain, otherwise impaired in making that decision.
I'm going to bet that the average bad guy won't be able to get a shot off within a second. Reaction time measured by hitting a button isn't the same as pulling a trigger.
It's not really possible to determine beforehand whether you will survive drawing on a bad guy. all you can do is guess. Before you make that decision, as was said, you practice and use a timer and targets. If you can't make that draw and shot within a second, I'd suggest that you never try it.
That's not the final answer. The person confronting you may have "extenuating circumstances" of being drunk or drugged, being uncertain, otherwise impaired in making that decision.
I'm going to bet that the average bad guy won't be able to get a shot off within a second. Reaction time measured by hitting a button isn't the same as pulling a trigger.
It's not really possible to determine beforehand whether you will survive drawing on a bad guy. all you can do is guess. Before you make that decision, as was said, you practice and use a timer and targets. If you can't make that draw and shot within a second, I'd suggest that you never try it.
It depends...
If they have already made the decision to kill you, you will likely lose.
If they decided to shoot at the first sign of resistance, you will likely lose.
Their decision cycle time in those cases is past or already shortened. Most people cannot draw and fire much quicker than 1 second. From concealment, a person that does not regularly practice will be closer to 2-2.5sec. Reaction time for a decision that has already been made (e.g. fire when they move quickly) is going to be in the .5-1sec range. So, your concealed carrier will probably lose by at least a second, here.
Now, that assumes this is a pre-made decision, and the opponent picks up on the action quickly. There are plenty of distractions you can make to slow their recognition of resistance. Getting them talking or dropping/throwing a wallet are very common ones, and may buy you an extra .5-2sec. That can make the difference. Futher, concealing the first part of your draw stroke can buy you another .5-1sec, if done right.
So, if a criminal is not expecting resistance, has not decided to fire on the first sign of abnormality, you distract them, and conceal the first part of your draw stroke, you will likely have the advantage.
...sure not a "sure thing," but if you start adding time on their end while reducing yours, you may gain the advantage.
If they have already made the decision to kill you, you will likely lose.
If they decided to shoot at the first sign of resistance, you will likely lose.
Their decision cycle time in those cases is past or already shortened. Most people cannot draw and fire much quicker than 1 second. From concealment, a person that does not regularly practice will be closer to 2-2.5sec. Reaction time for a decision that has already been made (e.g. fire when they move quickly) is going to be in the .5-1sec range. So, your concealed carrier will probably lose by at least a second, here.
Now, that assumes this is a pre-made decision, and the opponent picks up on the action quickly. There are plenty of distractions you can make to slow their recognition of resistance. Getting them talking or dropping/throwing a wallet are very common ones, and may buy you an extra .5-2sec. That can make the difference. Futher, concealing the first part of your draw stroke can buy you another .5-1sec, if done right.
So, if a criminal is not expecting resistance, has not decided to fire on the first sign of abnormality, you distract them, and conceal the first part of your draw stroke, you will likely have the advantage.
...sure not a "sure thing," but if you start adding time on their end while reducing yours, you may gain the advantage.
I admit I have not gone back and read all 6 pages of this thread, but I think if a criminal ever gets the drop on you, it is likely that the perp is an incompetent shooter. He might not even know how to work the gun he is holding. I would not want to risk my life on this just for the heck of it, but in a real situation, this is probably a factor in my favor.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Why would you assume anything of the sort? Do you have any actual information or evidence to support that supposition, or are you just guessing?cjwils said:...I think if a criminal ever gets the drop on you, it is likely that the perp is an incompetent shooter. He might not even know how to work the gun he is holding...
Some criminals are quite competent with firearms. Matix and Platt in the 1986 Miami FBI shootout, and Phillips and Mătăsăreanu in the 1997 North Hollywood shootout certainly knew how to work the guns they were using.
Double Naught Spy
New member
FWIW, several years ago I read a magazine article by an FBI firearms instructor. He said that if you're ever in a split second, live or die, face to face shooting, two things will happen:
1. You won't use the sights.
2. You'll shoot one-handed.
Just a data point....
Always be wary when people speak of absolutes in human behavior, particularly under stress.
FWIW, it really depends on the situation and training. That people don't remember using their sights isn't the same thing as not using their sights. Under stress, many people often don't recollect the details of how they accomplished their tasks, just like they don't remember whether they fired 1 shot, 3 shots, or 15 shots.
You can find a variety of examples of folks using two hands and folks using their sights. Here are a few.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUWX-4lRFjM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxyNReO3JXw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA8iZu-RNys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thVhVjn59mg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Riqv-a5NeWM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iFo1TrYMq4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8jWl4ZcVfs
I admit I have not gone back and read all 6 pages of this thread, but I think if a criminal ever gets the drop on you, it is likely that the perp is an incompetent shooter. He might not even know how to work the gun he is holding. I would not want to risk my life on this just for the heck of it, but in a real situation, this is probably a factor in my favor.
While I understand we all have some failures and let our guards down from time to time I would assume anyone who was able to "get the drop on me" was at least reasonably competent.
Of course a few criminals are highly competent with guns, and in some situations a criminal will get lucky in a confrontation. However, I am confident that I am a better shooter than the typical thug who might accost me on the street, or the typical junkie who might break into my house to steal my TV to get a quick fix. Having some confidence is important in any contest.