So I just had an argument with an anti-gun type and...
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severian said:
Look carefully at how you phrased this.
For voting, driving, procreating, you finished with "SHOULD they?"
For gun and carry, you finished with "SHOULD THEY HAVE BE ALLOWED TO?"
That is quite different from the others. I would possibly agree with questioning whether some people SHOULD (period), but NOT with whether they should be allowed to. Why the subtly different phrasing?
-blackmind
CarlosDJackal
New member
Correct. The only thing we can check is if this individual has a criminal record and sometimes, if they have had mental problems. This is no different that someone obtaining a driver's license, a pilot's license, or a hunting license.
So basically the problem you have is not with CCW but with society in general. In other words you feel that the Constitution should not apply to "goofballs" regardless of whether or not they are criminals or law-abiding citizens. This is a very dangerous thing because this type of thinking is exactly what the Constituion is trying to prevent. This is the same exact thinking the nazis held except they actually specifically labelled Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, non-nazis and indidivudals who are not of Aryan decent as "goofballs".
I am personally of the opinion that anyone who wants to carry legally should be required to attend some sort of training within a certain number of weeks after they are issued a permit. This way anyone who needs a permit now, can obtain a "temporary permit" now and just get the training within a reasonable amount of time. With the ability to conduct a criminal background check instantly, this should not be a problem. The temporary permit can be good for 30, 60, or 90-days after which the holder needs to present proof of their technical, legal, and mental competency before they can be issued a permanent permit.
JM2CW.
CarlosDJackal
New member
Because the chances of getting hit by lighting is so remote it's not really worth carrying a lighting rod. Plus the utility of wearing such a device is very much questionable because it is more likely to attract a strike than prevent it.
People who are fatally allergic to bee stings should carry bee sting kits iwth them. The same with people who live in areas where there are a lot of agressive snakes.
Your numbers are ridiculously bogus and you are full of crap. I've been stung by bees exactly twice in my 41 years. I've never been bitten by snakes and the closest I ever came to it was when a Water Mocassin tried to slither onto the canoe I was riding while on the Chatahoochee River in Georgia. It never did try to bite me or anything - it was just looking for a ride (as far as I can tell).
But in the same number of years, I've been shot at once and had a loaded gun pointed at my face. So that's at least two instances where it would have been nice for me to have one of my own.
Because bubble wrap is not very comfortable and would actually act as a catalyst in case of fire. But in lieu of bubble wrap, I wear a seatbelt, both my vehicles have airbags, and I have collision insurance. Even if I did not have any of these, I would still drive defensively. By your logic, just because you do not expect to get a flat there is no reason to have a spare tire and jack in your car.
A gun is a tool of last resort. Let me repeat that only louder: A GUN IS A TOOL OF LAST RESORT. I liken it to a reserve parachute when skydiving or Paratrooping. The only thing worse than getting into a position where you need to use one is getting into a position where you wish you had one (been there). As we used to say in Alaska: "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." This is why I carry one in the crapper.
Contrary to your narrow-minded way of looking at this, it is not about the gun. If there was a better tool with which I could walk around with, I would. If light sabers were real, I'd walk around with one and train to be a Jedi Knight. If I could wear some sort of talisman that would guarantee my safety in any situation, I would wear that. The only reason I carry a handgun is because it is hard to conceal my CAR-15 (you sheeple would panic if I started doing this).
I lock the doors of my house not because I've had someone try to break in, but because I don't want to make it any easier for anyone to try. I carry a gun not because I am paranoid, but because I have common sense. To paraphrase Clint Smith: "People ask me how why I am so paranoid. I ask them why should I be paranoid, I have a gun!!" JM2CW.
thanks blackmind.
No subtlety intended...once it's typed I tend to move on and not look back closely enough. I meant to place those rights on the same level and should have worded the last one more similar to the others. I think I was more focused on humor by that point (trying to lighten things up).
I don't post much, so please excuse my mistakes.
No subtlety intended...once it's typed I tend to move on and not look back closely enough. I meant to place those rights on the same level and should have worded the last one more similar to the others. I think I was more focused on humor by that point (trying to lighten things up).
I don't post much, so please excuse my mistakes.
Harley Quinn
Moderator
Carlos
I have not been on this thread so as I was reading it I was thinking of some answers. Just about the time I see it is winding down to give me a chance to post I read your post.
Good one. Pretty much where I was going. But you did it first and better I am sure.
Virgina is/was the leader in producing the 'on the leading edge' when we needed a Constitution, I see they are still hanging in there.
Thanks it saved me some time to look at the news and read how our rights are evaporating as we type.
Common Law and common sense, Natural law and the law of nature. Biological functions are part of our nature, others should get used to it. All houses should have indoor plumbing.
Lets be civilized and agree with me.
Harley
I have not been on this thread so as I was reading it I was thinking of some answers. Just about the time I see it is winding down to give me a chance to post I read your post.
Good one. Pretty much where I was going. But you did it first and better I am sure.
Virgina is/was the leader in producing the 'on the leading edge' when we needed a Constitution, I see they are still hanging in there.
Thanks it saved me some time to look at the news and read how our rights are evaporating as we type.
Common Law and common sense, Natural law and the law of nature. Biological functions are part of our nature, others should get used to it. All houses should have indoor plumbing.
Lets be civilized and agree with me.
Harley
PythonGuy:
"Does that apply to only gun owners, what about the kid who makes a mistake breaking into a car and house and gets himself killed? What if its your son? Will you be happy an armed citizen ended the threat then, when its only property. This is a very tough subject for pro gun people to deal with, but we have to if we want to maintain our rights."
My dad always told me not to to break into peoples houses at night, vandalize, etc. because I'd likely be shot. He probably wouldn't have been happy about it, but he made it clear to me that if I was exhibiting some sort of criminal behavior, especially on someone else's property, I was on my own.
"Does that apply to only gun owners, what about the kid who makes a mistake breaking into a car and house and gets himself killed? What if its your son? Will you be happy an armed citizen ended the threat then, when its only property. This is a very tough subject for pro gun people to deal with, but we have to if we want to maintain our rights."
My dad always told me not to to break into peoples houses at night, vandalize, etc. because I'd likely be shot. He probably wouldn't have been happy about it, but he made it clear to me that if I was exhibiting some sort of criminal behavior, especially on someone else's property, I was on my own.
Jim:
"Why not wear a lightning rod on your head? Why not always carry bee and snake venom kits."
"The majority of people in America will be involved in an auto accident eventually. Why not wrap yourself in bubble wrap every morning?"
Lightning rod? Wouldn't work. Besides, it would require a major lifestyle change.
Bee kit? I have a buddy who keeps one in every car he drives or rides in, even though he hasn't been stung in 30 years. He's allergic, and a bee sting could kill him. I'm not allergic, so inconceivable I would die from a bee sting.
Snake venom kit? Are you talking about those kits with the little suction thing? I was told they're ineffective. If you are talking about something that is effective and not cost-prohibitive, let me know. I spend a lot of time in snake country. I saw 2 yesterday. My son stepped on a snake in my front yard yesterday, too. I never saw that one.
(I hear pythons are getting out of control around here. Does anyone have a kit that will stop a snake that will swallow a six-foot 'gator? )
Bubble wrap? I wear my seatbelt religiously. Seatbelts are effective; bubble wrap would not be effective. Also, wearing bubble wrap would require a major lifestyle change.
Bubble wrap, bee sting kits, and personal lightning rods are poor analogies. All are ineffective and would require and/or would require a huge change in the way you live your life.
Carrying a snubby revolver in my pocket does not require much of a change in lifestyle for me. I have to wear pants with big pockets, and I have to avoid conflict. As a result I wear more comfortable pants, behave in a more civilized manner and I am safer. If you feel the gun owns me, that the gun makes me what I am, then so be it. Guns made me a better person.
"Why not wear a lightning rod on your head? Why not always carry bee and snake venom kits."
"The majority of people in America will be involved in an auto accident eventually. Why not wrap yourself in bubble wrap every morning?"
Lightning rod? Wouldn't work. Besides, it would require a major lifestyle change.
Bee kit? I have a buddy who keeps one in every car he drives or rides in, even though he hasn't been stung in 30 years. He's allergic, and a bee sting could kill him. I'm not allergic, so inconceivable I would die from a bee sting.
Snake venom kit? Are you talking about those kits with the little suction thing? I was told they're ineffective. If you are talking about something that is effective and not cost-prohibitive, let me know. I spend a lot of time in snake country. I saw 2 yesterday. My son stepped on a snake in my front yard yesterday, too. I never saw that one.
(I hear pythons are getting out of control around here. Does anyone have a kit that will stop a snake that will swallow a six-foot 'gator?
)Bubble wrap? I wear my seatbelt religiously. Seatbelts are effective; bubble wrap would not be effective. Also, wearing bubble wrap would require a major lifestyle change.
Bubble wrap, bee sting kits, and personal lightning rods are poor analogies. All are ineffective and would require and/or would require a huge change in the way you live your life.
Carrying a snubby revolver in my pocket does not require much of a change in lifestyle for me. I have to wear pants with big pockets, and I have to avoid conflict. As a result I wear more comfortable pants, behave in a more civilized manner and I am safer. If you feel the gun owns me, that the gun makes me what I am, then so be it. Guns made me a better person.
About the bathroom thing:
Well, yes, I carry a gun with me when I go to the bathroom, even in my own home. And everywhere else I go. Since I've got it right there, IWB, well, where I go, it goes. Just like my wallet, Leatherman, pocket knife, cell phone, car keys, glasses and my watch. It becomes more of an article of attire than anything else. Why would I take it off, go to the bathroom, and then put it back on? Besides that, isn't it more secure when it is on my person than not?
It isn't being paranoid -- it is just another tool I have on my person.
Well, yes, I carry a gun with me when I go to the bathroom, even in my own home. And everywhere else I go. Since I've got it right there, IWB, well, where I go, it goes. Just like my wallet, Leatherman, pocket knife, cell phone, car keys, glasses and my watch. It becomes more of an article of attire than anything else. Why would I take it off, go to the bathroom, and then put it back on? Besides that, isn't it more secure when it is on my person than not?
It isn't being paranoid -- it is just another tool I have on my person.
Wayne: I agree with your line of reasoning.
"Bee kit? I have a buddy who keeps one in every car he drives or rides in, even though he hasn't been stung in 30 years. He's allergic, and a bee sting could kill him. I'm not allergic, so inconceivable I would die from a bee sting."
As you say, unless you are allergic to bee stings, you don't need the kit. If you are, you sure better have one with you at all times. My wife is violently allergic to seafood -- even traces of it will cause her windpipe to swell, it is life-threatening -- and has to carry a Epi-Pen. Same thing, in other words.
"Snake venom kit? Are you talking about those kits with the little suction thing? I was told they're ineffective. If you are talking about something that is effective and not cost-prohibitive, let me know. I spend a lot of time in snake country. I saw 2 yesterday. My son stepped on a snake in my front yard yesterday, too. I never saw that one."
For the most part, snake bites are overrated, as long as you can get to an ER. You are better off not using those snakebite kits, they do more harm than good. If you are in snake country -- like if you are hunting in the brush country back home in Tx -- you are better served by wearing leather boots with snake leggings, and by carrying a snubby loaded with snake shot. Oh, and the snake leggings help with the cactus thorns, too! Anyway, the point here is that if you recognize that you are going into a high snake threat area, it isn't being paranoid or weird or anything if you take precautions against them. Now, if I were to take those sorts of snake precautions when I was just heading out to check the mail here in suburbia, well, that's another matter. And I think that's the point you are getting at.
"Bee kit? I have a buddy who keeps one in every car he drives or rides in, even though he hasn't been stung in 30 years. He's allergic, and a bee sting could kill him. I'm not allergic, so inconceivable I would die from a bee sting."
As you say, unless you are allergic to bee stings, you don't need the kit. If you are, you sure better have one with you at all times. My wife is violently allergic to seafood -- even traces of it will cause her windpipe to swell, it is life-threatening -- and has to carry a Epi-Pen. Same thing, in other words.
"Snake venom kit? Are you talking about those kits with the little suction thing? I was told they're ineffective. If you are talking about something that is effective and not cost-prohibitive, let me know. I spend a lot of time in snake country. I saw 2 yesterday. My son stepped on a snake in my front yard yesterday, too. I never saw that one."
For the most part, snake bites are overrated, as long as you can get to an ER. You are better off not using those snakebite kits, they do more harm than good. If you are in snake country -- like if you are hunting in the brush country back home in Tx -- you are better served by wearing leather boots with snake leggings, and by carrying a snubby loaded with snake shot. Oh, and the snake leggings help with the cactus thorns, too! Anyway, the point here is that if you recognize that you are going into a high snake threat area, it isn't being paranoid or weird or anything if you take precautions against them. Now, if I were to take those sorts of snake precautions when I was just heading out to check the mail here in suburbia, well, that's another matter. And I think that's the point you are getting at.
pax hit the nail on the head with post #26 on this thread, with regards to those who carry everywhere, those who carry occasionally, and those who think carrying at all makes you a whacko paranoid gun-obsessed mongrel.
pax’s post made good sense to me. It contrasts the different types of carry-persons we find debating on this and other similar threads.
I think it points out how someone who carries everywhere – yes, even the lavatory, - doesn’t necessarily mean they’re Gollum-like (LOTR), and their pistol is their “precious”… it’s more like their watch, wallet…etc. It’s all about your default setting. More than likely, your default setting is different from the guy next to you… but it doesn’t mean he’s a nut.
pax’s post made good sense to me. It contrasts the different types of carry-persons we find debating on this and other similar threads.
I think it points out how someone who carries everywhere – yes, even the lavatory, - doesn’t necessarily mean they’re Gollum-like (LOTR), and their pistol is their “precious”… it’s more like their watch, wallet…etc. It’s all about your default setting. More than likely, your default setting is different from the guy next to you… but it doesn’t mean he’s a nut.
pax said:
Now, if I were to take those sorts of snake precautions when I was just heading out to check the mail here in suburbia, well, that's another matter.
O.T., but I did tell my son to put his shoes on and that if he'd mow the danged yard when I tell him to, we wouldn't have so many snakes here in suburbia.
O.T., but I did tell my son to put his shoes on and that if he'd mow the danged yard when I tell him to, we wouldn't have so many snakes here in suburbia.
From 'way back on the first page:
This isn't for you, but for any women out there who might need to know: the most likely place for a rape isn't a deserted area, but rather a "fringe" area, a secluded spot not too far from lots of other people.
Think about it: the rapist has to have a victim. In order to find a victim, he's going to go where there are people.
But he also needs privacy to do his thing.
So the most dangerous area, rape-wise, is a relatively quiet spot where you are 30 seconds or more from the crowd and where your voice either won't carry far enough or won't sound out of place. At a party, it's a back room (as all too many college girls have discovered to their sorrow). At the shopping mall, it's that long, deserted hallway on the way to the bathrooms. At the county fair, it's back behind the carnival rides or at the back of the sheep barn.
And at a beach? It's not an empty beach that's a danger; it's the beach with lots of people, but which has sand dunes (so you're out of sight and out of hearing) or the parking lot full of cars but empty of other people.
Too many people think they are safe from assault simply because other people are not far away. But the presence of other people is what makes an attack possible in the first place, so the areas you have to be most alert in are the fringe areas near, but not in, a crowd.
Edited to add: I learned this first from Marc MacYoung, but have heard it since from many other reputable trainers as well.
pax
Jim,jsp98m3 (Jim) said:
This isn't for you, but for any women out there who might need to know: the most likely place for a rape isn't a deserted area, but rather a "fringe" area, a secluded spot not too far from lots of other people.
Think about it: the rapist has to have a victim. In order to find a victim, he's going to go where there are people.
But he also needs privacy to do his thing.
So the most dangerous area, rape-wise, is a relatively quiet spot where you are 30 seconds or more from the crowd and where your voice either won't carry far enough or won't sound out of place. At a party, it's a back room (as all too many college girls have discovered to their sorrow). At the shopping mall, it's that long, deserted hallway on the way to the bathrooms. At the county fair, it's back behind the carnival rides or at the back of the sheep barn.
And at a beach? It's not an empty beach that's a danger; it's the beach with lots of people, but which has sand dunes (so you're out of sight and out of hearing) or the parking lot full of cars but empty of other people.
Too many people think they are safe from assault simply because other people are not far away. But the presence of other people is what makes an attack possible in the first place, so the areas you have to be most alert in are the fringe areas near, but not in, a crowd.
Edited to add: I learned this first from Marc MacYoung, but have heard it since from many other reputable trainers as well.
pax
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pax
+1
My wife is always asking if I am armed when we go for walks in the woods,but never asks me when we go shopping ,out for dinner etc. I have tried to tell her that predators go where there is a large number of possible victims, not where one MIGHT show up once a month or less. But she still feels uneasy in more secluded areas.She uses the arguement that the police find a large number of victims in secluded areas, not realizing the they were usually abducted from more populated areas and then dumped in the boonies.
+1
My wife is always asking if I am armed when we go for walks in the woods,but never asks me when we go shopping ,out for dinner etc. I have tried to tell her that predators go where there is a large number of possible victims, not where one MIGHT show up once a month or less. But she still feels uneasy in more secluded areas.She uses the arguement that the police find a large number of victims in secluded areas, not realizing the they were usually abducted from more populated areas and then dumped in the boonies.