So I just had an argument with an anti-gun type and...

If you were to read some of my other post, you would probably get the idea that I am the "resident wacko". But that is how we have been acclimated to think of people that we don't agree with. I may not be real articulate, and lack some clarification in my posting, but should I be judged soley on what is written here. I have very strong conviction about things, and most people are middle of the road, and I still carry. But guess what, I had to pass a MMPI2 pshyc eval to get there.

There are those here on this forum that should be the next SCOTUS justice because they are so good at passing judgement, and without complete information. For the most, part people here understand what this forum is, and take it for what they can get from it, ansd contibute to it. I don't think anyone here is any kind of position to judge anothers rights based soley on what is written on these pages.

Sure we all get a sense of feeling about someone based on what we read, but until you have stood face to face, and spent some time with them I think that declaring they should not even own firearms is a persons own shortcommings, and they need to look inside themselves to find the real issue.
 
Hello All!

I've been following the thread, and I figured I would give an optional idea, one that comes from a woman, and from a woman who owns.

So, yeah, I think, that in most situations, it's pretty unproductive to argue with a knock-down-full-out-doesn't-matter-what-you-say anti. It's one of those "discussions" one has to pull back and analyze, on a personal level, what good is it to be right in that instance. In that kind of situation, imho, I would try to offer an alternative solution that may prove to be a win-win, or at least an attempt of such.

Tell the person you respect their opinions. Respect does not have to equal belief. You would want that person to respect your opinions, therefore, the respect should be given primarily by the first. As the old adage goes...respect is not given, it is earned.

So, how do you "earn" that respect from someone who adamantly opposed such a strong issue? You give them the opportunity. You say, "Let's make a deal. I go to one of your left-wing meetings and you come to the range with me on Saturday afternoon"

Sounds a little crazy? Maybe. But, what is more looney.....talking in circles or providing a chance for both persons to learn about the other and begin an open line of communication that both may learn from away from becoming the defender of this and that which they believe is right. You never know. Both of you may learn something about the other that is completely opposite of what you humanly and preimptively judged about one another.

But...of course, that's just my $0.02. :)

Shan
 
I have to admit I am totally in agreement with jsp98m3, And I am NOT anti gun. I just worry that some guys tend to solve all their problems by carrying a gun. There is no guaranteee that having a gun will save your life unless it is in your hand 24/7, and that is not practical. The guys who try and keep it with them 24/7 do seem to be a little, high strung shall we say. And as for USP45usp's arguement that youth needs to learn and we were all like that, I agree. However, when it comes to a gun and possibly killing or maiming a person because of a youthful mistake, that's a hard pill to swallow. We have the right to keep and bear arms, and we always should. We don't have the right to use deadly force for someone breaking into our car, what happened to youthful mistakes? Does that apply to only gun owners, what about the kid who makes a mistake breaking into a car and house and gets himself killed? What if its your son? Will you be happy an armed citizen ended the threat then, when its only property. This is a very tough subject for pro gun people to deal with, but we have to if we want to maintain our rights. As jsp98m3 said, if you can't go to the bathroom or take a shower without a gun in your hand, there may be a bigger problem.....
 
Most of the reasoning I've read - against CCW - is akin to some reasoning used by the Brady Campaign.

I love how people throw out the disclaimers before they say something Brady-esque, like "Hey, don't get me wrong I own like 6 guns, but..."

Do some people seem a little weird, of course. But I'm not arrogant enough to impose my beliefs - about what is normal/abnormal - on their lifestyle.

And, this business about not needing to carry in a place "that is 99.9999999999999% safe,” is real brilliant.

If we're going to systematically base our opinions/judgments on percentages, then we should really oppose CCW all together - because statistically we'll never need a firearm for self-defense, right?

The problem is you never know when, or where, a piece of scum will decide it's a good time and place to commit a violent crime against you, or your loved ones. This is what breeds the "need" to carry everywhere, at all times. It's not completely irrational - as some of you try to make it seem with your belittling comments.

Mocking one who chooses to carry at all times by making funny cracks about taking' a poop with a .45 in their hand, or going full-out James Bond during your child’s baptism, is purely to stir up the pot.

If you've ever done something and used the term, "Just in case..." - then you fully understand some people's need to carry constantly.
 
The psycho types are carrying wheather they have a CCW or not. Many states have had CCW for over 10 years now and the big liberal fear of nut cases running wild having shootouts at the mall..etc never came to pass.

As for statistics showing the odds of being a victim of violent crime.

Col. Cooper put it best when he said "Statistics are a cold comfort when you find yourself in the life or death self defense situation"
 
I worry about some people. Just in case.

Your arguments for having to always have the guns just in case do not answer some of my original questions of this type of thinking. Why not wear a lightning rod on your head? Why not always carry bee and snake venom kits. You are much more likely to need them.

The majority of people in America will be involved in an auto accident eventually. Why not wrap yourself in bubble wrap every morning?

Etc, etc.

I don't care if you carry your gun to the crapper. I find you amusing. I think you all would be healthier people inside your own little heads if you admitted that its 'all about the gun'.

If you can't, I understand.
 
Carrying

I read these articles and take what they say with a grain of salt. After all they are mostly opinions (which everyone is entitled to). Here in NJ we don't even have an option to carry. It burns me up that we dont even have the option to become "paranoid". LOL John:mad:
 
Your house will probably never burn down, yet you will still buy insurance and check smoke detector batteries.

I don't understand what you mean by carrying to the bathroom. Are you saying that while at Wal-Mart, you should put your gun in your car and then return to the store to use the bathroom? If at home there is no reason to carry so the bathroom statement should not apply there.

I think most that first get their CCW will carry everywhere for awhile, then it becomes more of a "depending on the situation type of thing". I feel no reason to carry at grandmothers house...etc. yet If I must go to the laundry mat after dark then, the pistol follows.

It all depends on where you live also. If you live in an upscale neaborhood where crime is a very extreme rarety, then I see your point. But if you live in an apartment complex that has hade at least to armed mugging in the parking lot after hours (like where I live) then you tend to carry more often.
 
jsp98m3 said:
Your arguments for having to always have the guns just in case do not answer some of my original questions of this type of thinking. Why not wear a lightning rod on your head? Why not always carry bee and snake venom kits. You are much more likely to need them.
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You know the answer to these silly questions. It's plainly obvious why we do not wear lightening rods on our heads, and/or carry bee and snake venom kits. It's not practical - and a bite by either, rarely results in instant death - there is time to seek medical attention in most cases.

Though, if I were walking in rattlesnake country, I might just have a venom kit. However, I'm rather confident that I'm not going to be bitten by a rattlesnake on my way to the grocery store. I can't say the same about being mugged, beaten, or killed.

On the other hand, people do die quickly from a gunshot wound. Last time I looked into it, dialing 911 while dead from a gunshot wound, is pretty difficult. Hence the practical need to carry the "bad guy kit", or firearm as we call it. A practical solution to a problem - regardless of the apparent frequency in which the problem occurs.

jsp98m3 said:
The majority of people in America will be involved in an auto accident eventually. Why not wrap yourself in bubble wrap every morning?
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We have airbags, seat belts, side impact beams...etc. Again, these are practical solutions for a problem (auto accidents) - in lieu of "bubble wrap". Pretty funny though.

jsp98m3 said:
I don't care if you carry your gun to the crapper. I find you amusing. I think you all would be healthier people inside your own little heads if you admitted that its 'all about the gun'.
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You find me amusing? I'm confused, now. I've never carried a concealed weapon in my life (you see, it's illegal in Wisconsin), so surely I cannot be this "wacko" type that you speak of. But, if talking down to members of this board makes you feel superior, I'm willing to take it with a grain of salt. ;)
 
I can see where Jim is coming from, as a responsible gun owner it is a bit strange to share the same space with others that I honestly do not consider responsible gun owners.

Some posts that I have read here leave me to think that the poster lives his/her life for the gun and envisions pretty much any solution where they get the chance to act the hero or stand in for a law enforcement officer with that tool. Or that same poster is so paranoid about their environment that while they have honed their observation skills upward to take awareness of their situations, while they honed down their ability for a little common sense and good judgement.

A lot of those posts really do great justice for the anti-gun crowd, and honestly if I were in their shoes and reading some of the material presented by some of the more shall we say exotic users, I too would be passing around a Brady petition to get weapons out of hands of these people.

But people are people, and I hope that a lot of what I read is just online-bravado.
 
Trip20,

Relax dude, he's just trying to make a point and voice his opinion, don't be so defensive, it makes you sound para......:D
 
Clinot said:
A lot of those posts really do great justice for the anti-gun crowd, and honestly if I were in their shoes and reading some of the material presented by some of the more shall we say exotic users, I too would be passing around a Brady petition to get weapons out of hands of these people.
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I don't believe you. You’re more intelligent than this.

Contrary to popular belief, the streets are not running with blood due to the paranoid, gun-obsessed wacko gun owners... One would think they are, based on some of the things you read on TFL (especially in the Tactics & Training forum).

I think you've nailed it with bravado. Harmless in and of itself - but harmful in the opinion it facilitates.
 
I think that anyone calling guns a "fetish" object is quite possibly seeing himself in others -- othewise known as "projecting."

I mean, where does one get off saying that anyone who simply has decided to keep a gun at ready as much of the time as possible is "fetishizing" the gun, rather than just "opting to be prepared"? Does this person KNOW everyone about whom he speaks?? I carry when I go to the beach, but usually when I go, I carry a roll-top "dry bag" for use on my kayak. I keep more than just a gun there; I keep my wallet, money, cellular phone, etc. as well.

JSP, who are you to pass such judgment on others just because you feel there are times when you have some sort of magical protection that means you won't end up needing a gun in a dire situation?

-blackmind
 
PythonGuy said:
Relax dude, he's just trying to make a point and voice his opinion, don't be so defensive, it makes you sound para......
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That's not all he's doing. He said it himself:

jsp98m3 said:
Do you think I post the way I do to be a troublemaker? Well maybe a little :) I am definitely a chain yanker at times.
Click to expand...

He knows what he's doing - and it's not "just trying to make a point and voice his opinion". You don't bring up lightening rods and such... unless your now just trying to be a "chain yanker"... I'm perfectly willing to listen to reasonable discussion. He's being unreasonable in a few areas, that's all. I've taken it upon myself to point those areas out, just as you've taken it upon yourself to be the defender of jsp98m3.

Now hold on, I think I just heard something downstairs. I'm going code sea-foam green (not sure what that signifies). I'll let you all know how it turns out.
 
jsp98m3 said:
I don't care if you carry your gun to the crapper. I find you amusing. I think you all would be healthier people inside your own little heads if you admitted that its 'all about the gun'.

If you can't, I understand.
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Man, you seem to be one condescending dude. I can hardly believe you would trot this kind of rhetoric out, here.

Someone said it smacks of anti... I am strongly inclined to agree. It has the same elitist "I get to be amused by how weird or stupid or paranoid you are, from my throne on the Mount of Normality" stink. :barf:


-blackmind
 
This may not be the wisest choice for a first post...but, oh well...

First, from a psychological standpoint, people engaged in casual conversation or conversation aimed at "impressing" others tend to not verbalize true intent, but instead relay emotion. In other words.. Bravado...

Secondly, jsp98m3 , although the statistic is about 4 years old, the last study I have seen showed that LESS than 1% of CCW holders have had their permits revoked for criminal behavior. While not perfect, it would seem that the numbers are in our favor of excluding the "nuts" , that would carry anyway.

Third... is it truly irrational paranoia to carry everywhere possible? That is merely a matter of perspective. Do I carry a gun to the bathroom in my own home, yes. Have I always, no. Why did I change? Simple, Over the years there has been a steady increase of home invasions (in nice neighborhoods I should add) and it boils down to one simple fact, IF it happened, do I want my gun closer to them , or closer to me. It is a matter of keeping control of your weapon, not excited anticipation of "getting to use my piece".

Fourth... Consider this fact... The criminals know where a person may or may not legally carry a weapon... where do you believe they will choose to mug/rob/rape/kidnap someone?

Finally... I agree that some comments are disconcerting, but this is true about conversations involving religion, politics and many other subjects. Whether you open your mind and look at the world from an unbiased perspective, or simply form a quick opinion is ultimately your choice... please do enjoy the freedom to do so.
 
DocFox said:
Do I carry a gun to the bathroom in my own home, yes. Have I always, no. Why did I change? Simple, Over the years there has been a steady increase of home invasions (in nice neighborhoods I should add) and it boils down to one simple fact, IF it happened, do I want my gun closer to them , or closer to me. It is a matter of keeping control of your weapon, not excited anticipation of "getting to use my piece".
Click to expand...


+1!

Doc, good points.

It seems to me that JSP is inclined toward thinking that anyone who wishes to never be caught with his pants down (pun intended) is paranoid.

When I shower, I do bring my little pack into the bathroom with me. I imagine how I'd feel if I heard the front door shoved in and realized, "Crap! I left my piece in the living room/bedroom/closet!" If it is no trouble to STAY prepared, why would one ever allow oneself to be UNprepared? Bravado? Should I want to "challenge" myself, or allow the home invader some sort of more level playing field? Even his chances? NO. I want to stack the odds as much in my favor as possible.

There is no downside that I can think of to keeping the gun close by even when in the home. I think that anyone who allows himself to relax his guard just because he's home either lives in a fortified bunker (and his attitude is warranted) or he is fooling himself about his security and may just be the one who is unprepared for the unexpected intruder. Home invasions DO happen. Residents do NOT get to choose when and how. Sometimes it's the guy who "just ran out of gas and needs to use the phone." Other times, it's the dude who just bashes the door with no warning. Other times, it's the guy who sneaks in during the night when everyone's asleep, and gets discovered in the dark hallway.

I'd like JSP to explain why it's unwise to keep a firearm close by, just in case. What's the harm of doing it -- "seeming paranoid"? Who cares how I seem? I want to be ready.

-blackmind
 
this is directed at nobody and everybody in particular

---Though I may disagree with what you say, I'll defend to the death your right to say it.---

Don't focus on the individual. It is the spirit, the essence of the right that needs championing.

People will never cease to disappoint.

Everyone* has the right to get a license and drive a car. Should they ALL? No.

Everyone has the right to vote. Should they ALL vote? NO,NO,NO.

Everyone has the right to procreate and multiply. Should they ALL? Heck NO.

Everyone has the right to own a gun (and once officially allowed, to CCW). Should EVERYBODY own and/or carry a gun? NO.

The point is...

Everyone has these rights. However, I also answered NO to all the above. It is MY mind, MY opinion, MY standards that "everyone" is held up to.
Luckily, I have no executive power (my Beginner's Benevolent Dictator Kit Mk.I has yet to arrive in the mail) and thus everyone retains these rights.

I also enjoy these rights. I am the greatest driver to sail the streets. My political and dictatorial prowess is uncanny at the very least. My genes are of a stock greater than Nature has ever witnessed. I am a very responsible gun owner.

All kidding aside. I would be very cross indeed if these rights (of which I humbly feel I am qualified for) were to be restricted. It doesnt matter if some dumb-butt drives recklessly, father's 14 felonious seeds, or goes crazy with a gun. It is not right to punish the whole for the mistakes of the dumb.

There are 6+ billion people in the world. How many would you actually trust with a gun? Procreating? Driving? Voting? Truthfully answer that and you'll see that only YOU truly are qualified.

Me, I like my guns. I'll have em till some higher power takes them. Then I'll be powerless and sad.

If you read closely, there's a little sarcasm, a little humor, and a little truth in there.

Take no offence. What do I know, I'm just a dum bass.


*everyone in a loose, not literal sense, please.
 
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