So how about REPEALING the 2nd Amendment?

A right is a right. If a right is infringed upon, that does not mean it is not longer a right. That just makes it an infringed right. The right to keep and bear arms is a right, just as free speech. The Second Amendment forbids the infrigement of this right. Why?

It should have been enough for the Second Amendment to just say, "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." In hindsight, we all wish that is all it said. But the authors of the Bill of Rights didn't concieve of their words being deconstructed to mean the opposite of what they meant when they wrote "A well regulated militia...blah blah blah..."

But why did they say all that stuff? I believe the reason for saying all that stuff about a "well regulated militia" and "security of a free state" was to make it understood that it is in the best interest of a free state not to infringe upon this particular right, as it is necessary for its security. It was the experience driven, political doctrine of our Founding Fathers, that having a standing army, controlled by a king or emperor, limited that country's defensed to those who were trained to use weapons of war. In Europe, for instance, warriors were of a particular class of people. A European country's defense depended soley on a standing army of trained soldiers, which was limited to those who were trained in the use personal arms. After that line of defense falls, the country was open to complete control of it's foreign invaders, as nobody else in that country was trained to use weapons. The model of defense our founding fathers invisioned was one where all able bodies males (the militia) would posses arms and know how to use them. The word's "well regulated" to the modern mind insinuates government control. This suits the statists who wish to disarm the people. But the words "well regulated" really means that the militia would be proficient with the use of personal arms, and have arms that are in standard use and up to date. This militia, comprised of the people, in possession of up to date weapons, and with the knowledge of their use, would be a formidible opponent for any invader or domestic threat. Therefore, if the right to keep and bear arms was infringed, that well regulated militia, which is necessary for the security of a free state, would not exist, as there would be few people who had any proficency in the use of arms because they do not posses them. Plus, as it was stated in this thread numberous times already, that it protected the people from possible tyrants, as the people would have the ability to stand up to tyranny. Our Founding Fathers did not think of the U.S. as being above the possibility of falling into tyranny. In fact, most believed it was inevitable, and that's why the right to keep and bear arms must not be infringed.

Also, keep in mind that the Second Amendment in no way makes "the right to keep and bear arms contingent upon the existance of "a well regulated militia". It is a stated right the people. It is merely in the best interest of a free state not to infringe upon this right for the sake of it's security. Any other position is statist at it's core.
 
The 2nd Amendment doesn't need to be repealed. The pathetic, whimpering husks that used to be "American" need to be whipped back into shape. To realize that it is their job to pretect their precious children.
Since we have to have Sex education because parent's can't be bothered to teach their children about it, I guess we need "Arms Education" as well:
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." (Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.)
Only the slightest amount of research on the subject reveals exactly what was truly meant by the second amendment:
"The great object is that every man be armed . . . Everyone who is able may have a gun." (Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention on the ratification of the Constitution.)
"Constitution shall never be construed . . . to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms," (Samuel Adams wanted this as an amendment)

The government just seems to ignore it's own determination regarding the RKBA as evident from this document: The Right to Keep and Bear Arms
(REPORT
of the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION
of the

UNITED STATES SENATE

NINETY-SEVENTH CONGRESS
Second Session

February 1982) from which I ripped the quotations from. :p
 
Good Thread ...

Hi all I just found this forum and this thread and registered so that I might comment.

Sometimes I think the entire Bill of Rights should be repealed. It is my understanding that most Framers, most States, and most People did not want a US Bill of Rights because it made it look like the central government had jurisdiction over rights. Jefferson said that the key to good government was to leave things like Civil Rights in the domain of the States.

Regarding the term "free State" in the Second Amendment, I believe that it refers to free government or self-government. The way I understand it, government by one is a monarchy, government by few is an oligarchy, and government by the people is a free State.

I would like to add that the US is not a free State, it is a Union of free States. In a free State power flows from the people, and the people of a free State must be armed because that is the only way power will flow from them. But in the US, power flows from the people as fifty sovereignties i.e. States. Therefore, in the US, it is the States which must have the right to bear arms against US government.

As for the concept of a God-given RKBA, I too have a problem with that one. I see things more in term of natural rights and governmental rights. I believe that people have a natural right to self-government or a free State ... I think I need expand on this term "free State" to make my point ...

On the one hand, the people of a free State can do anything they want, such as declare someone King. But then they would not be a free State, they would be a monarchy. There are limits on what a free State can do and still have free government, and I believe these limits are known as "rights".
 
AFAIK the word state is not capitalized, indicating that it referred to a status rather than a "State." Of course, that supports your argument at the same time it diminishes it, but there it is.
 
Even if it weren't, I have trouble believing that the anti-federalists were so metaphysical that they'd refer to a free state, with "state" not referring to a geopolitical entity.
 
... please be patient ... I am downloading a high resolution image of the Bill of Rights from the national archives at http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/bill_of_rights.html

I hope to zoom in on the Second Amendment, and the words "free State", and post them here.

But I must say that I do not get too excited about the way the Bill of Rights is worded and punctuated. The more I come to understand what the States were requesting, the more I come to understand how Madison put a federalist spin on it.

For instance, someone here quoted Patrick Henry as saying that the object was that every man be armed. But, of course, he did not mean so that they could defend themselves against burglars - Patrick Henry said that his primary concern was the federal power over the militia. Federalist Paper #29 explained that that there was no cause for apprehension "while the particular States are to have the sole and exclusive apportionment of the officers".

Yet, when Madison drafted the Second Amendment, he spun it so that it said that militia was necessary to the security of a free "Country"! Of course this was changed from a "free Country" to a "free State" - the very intent was that the US is NOT a Country or a State, it is a UNION of Countries or States, and that is why the States needed to maintain control of their Militia was so they might stay States/Nations/Countries and not end up being "administrative units of federal government".

But it just goes to show how Madison might word something to reflect his own federalist intent rather than the intent of the States.
 
s.jpg
 
The reference to "a free State" is in the singular. It cannot be taken to mean anything other than the United States as a nation. The Amendments are of course binding over all the States.

The phrase "the right of the people" clearly refers to every individual free man - at liberty - within the "State". Were it referring to any other, such would be specified as in the 10th Amendment; which refers to the "United States" (the State), "the States" and "the people" separately. "The people" not being capitalized as to remove any final doubt (if that were remotely possible).

To "interpret" the 2nd Amendment any other way is predicated on the idea that the writer - and all who signed it - "made a mistake". A "typo". Or collectively had a momentary episode of "misunderstanding" in the language chosen for the document.
 
The reference to "a free State" is in the singular. It cannot be taken to mean anything other than the United States as a nation. The Amendments are of course binding over all the States.

The Bill of Rights was a federal Bill of Rights limiting only federal government, not a national Bill of Rights limiting all government. The Supreme Court made this clear repeatedly ... offhand I believe in Miller v Texas, Presser v Illinois, and Cruikshank v ... whoever. The 14th "Amendment" was an attempt to make the BOR binding over all the States, but that is another matter.



The phrase "the right of the people" clearly refers to every individual free man - at liberty - within the "State". Were it referring to any other, such would be specified as in the 10th Amendment"

The Tenth Amendment's principle is that powers are reserved to each State, which may be either the State Government or the people of THAT STATE if such powers are not delegated. I believe that New York's request for the Tenth Amendment made the principle clear:

"that every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by the said Constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States, or the departments of the Government thereof, remains to the People of the several States, or to their respective State Governments to whom they may have granted the same"

The Tenth cannot be construed to say that powers are reserved to the individual States or to the people of the whole US. Clearly undelegated powers must be reserved to those who have the power to delegate them. If powers were reserved to the people of the US then they could delegated them with a popular vote. Clearly powers are reserved to the people of the individual States.
 
Hold the phone ... are you seriously reconsidering your view? I have always found that people just go on forever defending their side's view no matter what. :confused:
 
I don't think I really had a "view" with regards to the capitalization of the word "State". I think you have me confused. When I say "my side", I mean the pro-gun side. I have seen the lower cased "s" argument used in favor of the argument that the 2nd is an individual right. Maybe you mistook me for an anti?
 
I was trying to compliment you for accepting something which, as you say, you had been taught for years was false. I think most people would have continued to insist that, even though it looks like an upper case "S", that it was intended to be a lower case "S", or it should be read as if it was a lower case "S", etc.
 
Thanks, but you'll find that honest debate and admission of mistakes are pretty common in this community. Welcome aboard by the way.
 
Thanks. This forum seems pretty active.

By the way, my concept of the term "free State" came to me when I noticed that, although the 1776 Virginia Constitution said that militia was for the security of a "free State", the 1776 Maryland Constitution says that it is for the security of "free Government". So I figured that "free State" means "free government".

I also noticed in Webster's 1828 Dictionary, under "Monarchy", that it says that a free State has many advantages over a monarchy. So I figure a "free State" is a form of government to be contrasted with a monarchy. And since a monarchy is rule by one, it seemed to all come together that a "free State" is rule by the people.

I think this is also what the Constitution means when it guarantees each State a republican form of government. I believe that means that each State is to be governed by the people of that State, not by the people of the many States.
 
Hugh,

To say that the BORs is not binding on the states implies that any state without a specific constitutional codification of it's own can jail people without trial, prevent them from possessing arms and a long list of other things. I don't buy that concept. If such were the case, the SCOTUS would not be able to hear any cases concerning the BORs in citizen vs state etc in any exclusive state jurisdiction.

The Tenth Amendment is written in plain english, as is the 2nd. The word "delegate", "delegation" or any other substitute does not appear in the 10th. There are no wasted words in the BORs, and everything is specific.

There are three separate terms used in the 10th. Whereas in the 2nd there are only two - the State [singular] and the people.
 
To say that the BORs is not binding on the states implies that any state without a specific constitutional codification of it's own can jail people without trial, prevent them from possessing arms and a long list of other things. I don't buy that concept.
I understand. I used to say what you say. We are raised to think that such important things cannot be left up to each State. But there was a time when we were raised to think that such important things must be left up to each State.



If such were the case, the SCOTUS would not be able to hear any cases concerning the BORs in citizen vs state etc in any exclusive state jurisdiction.
That is a good point! Now hold on to your hat and read Article III, section 2, of the Constitution, and see if the SCOTUS was created with jurisdiction over "citizen vs state etc in any exclusive state jurisdiction". It says something like this:

"The judicial Power shall extend ... to controversies between two or more States; between a State and Citizens of another State; between Citizens of different States."



The Tenth Amendment is written in plain english, as is the 2nd. The word "delegate", "delegation" or any other substitute does not appear in the 10th. There are no wasted words in the BORs, and everything is specific.
Now you lost me. The word "delegate" doesn't appear in the 10th?

"The powers not delegated to the US by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
 
Another point if I may ...

The SCOTUS has ruled that, regardless of the Second Amendment, a State cannot disarm its people because that would deny the many States a source of militia. So although I believe a State may pass many gun laws and it remains their intrastate affair, I do not believe that a State can disarm its general population - that is what I think is federally protected.
 
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