2damnold4this
New member
I see Dr. Fackler, who was the head of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory for the US Army's Medical Training Center, as a credible source.
Last edited:
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Snubby load?
- Thread starter ZVP
- Start date
thibaultfelix40
New member
Lost Creditability
Nanuck, you just lost more creds. I remember how small my m-14 felt in a morter attack on our base in Vietnam. Another thing came to mind. One day a convoy was being stalked by a tiger (that's a great big cat with black and yellow stripes) . The guy on top of the of the apc opened up with a 50 callber machine gun. This really poed (made him mad) the tiger. Ole tige attacked the APC and was finished by multiple rifle and pistol rpunds. So you're right too small of a defensive weapon can just make an assailant mad. This is probabbly why the Bradley fighting vehicle has a 20 mm.
Nanuck, you just lost more creds. I remember how small my m-14 felt in a morter attack on our base in Vietnam. Another thing came to mind. One day a convoy was being stalked by a tiger (that's a great big cat with black and yellow stripes) . The guy on top of the of the apc opened up with a 50 callber machine gun. This really poed (made him mad) the tiger. Ole tige attacked the APC and was finished by multiple rifle and pistol rpunds. So you're right too small of a defensive weapon can just make an assailant mad. This is probabbly why the Bradley fighting vehicle has a 20 mm.
I think you guys are being too hard on Nanuk (though it doesn't seem to bother him). He may have over-stated the uselessness of a .38 wadcutter but I wouldn't say he has lost credibility for stating his personal experience. If he has 25 years as a street cop (and I have no reason to doubt his word on that) then his experience is data worth considering, even though anecdotal. Much information about Caliber effectiveness is, always has been, and always will be anecdotal. It has always served me in many endeavors to read the books and then also listen to those with experience. The combination is golden.
I agree, we should respect Nanuk not only as a member but also for his long service as an LEO. I don't discount his opinion and as your correctly point out, anecdotal evidence, but punching a bad guy's ticket with a wadcutter will for sure work. He disagrees and I don't agree with him. It is nothing personal for me and I mean no offense. I will always like max meplat over anything else. I like two holes, one in and one out.
Good advice from all.
Yesterday I set out to locate some of the aforementioned ammo but alas couldn't.
I did however, get a box of Horinady Custom. 158gr Hollowpoints loaded with their XTP Hollowpoints bullet. Recoil is mild enough and preformance is tops from my Chief's short bbl!
I want to thank you all again for your help!
ZVP
Yesterday I set out to locate some of the aforementioned ammo but alas couldn't.
I did however, get a box of Horinady Custom. 158gr Hollowpoints loaded with their XTP Hollowpoints bullet. Recoil is mild enough and preformance is tops from my Chief's short bbl!
I want to thank you all again for your help!
ZVP
2damnold4this
New member
I agree, we should respect Nanuk not only as a member but also for his long service as an LEO.
Yep. It's just a disagreement, nothing more.
I would agree that a standard wadcutter out of an abbreviated barrel is a poor choice, but stating that it will"only" make the person angry is a bit of hyperbole.
The word hyperbole means exaggeration.
To state that shooting someone with a .38 wadcutter will "only" make them mad or angry is just silly. As I stated, I agree with you that it is a poor choice. If I taunted an aggressor about his fat mother THAT would only make him angry at best or "only". There would be no other possible effect of the action. Your experience can be whatever it is, but to make a blanket statement about all other possible shootings with the round from here to judgement day based on some belief that your personal experiences will generalize to all others does not wash. Do you have some thought that no shootings with the round in question has ever stopped an attack or resulted in quick or immediate incapacitation? Again, it is a poor choice especially from a snubby. It will however punch a .357 hole in someone deep enough to hit vitals.
The one and only shooting with a .38 Special wadcutter in which I knew the shooter personally resulted in one dead home invader in New Mexico with one center punch in 1979. I suppose I could state with some truthfulness that in my experience the .38 wadcutter is a one shot stopper 100% of the time, but I think it would be somewhat of an over statement don't you agree?
Bullets do weird things. Certainly some are much more effective at incapacitating an attacker than others all other things being equal. None of them are to utterly ineffective that the only across the board result from a hit will be an elevated anger level.
Ok, so I overstated the uselessness of the 38 wadcutter in my experience that is just my contempt for the round for use in self defense from a violent felon coming thru. I did not say that the wounds were not ultimately lethal for those that chose to not seek medical attention. Some people were less than impressed initially largely due to adrenaline and sought out medical attention later.
Am I correct in my understanding that the people you referenced (inner city whatevers) were using light weight target hand loads for self defense?
That is a fact. The local pawn shop sold individual bullets for $2 each (in the 80's), that way the local thugs could top off.
a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel - 890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel - 961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel - 1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)
I'm debating - believe Buffalo Bore or believe......
Jim Cirrillo’s “safe stop” was the same idea. I spoke with him at FLETC when he was an instructor there, and we did not agree about it then either. He used the WC because it was that or LRN. I used WC’s in my Marlin carbine and they worked VERY well on skunks, my guess is they were moving out around 1000 FPS, which is where I would like to see them from a handgun.
Lost Creditability
Nanuck, you just lost more creds. I remember how small my m-14 felt in a morter attack on our base in Vietnam. Another thing came to mind. One day a convoy was being stalked by a tiger (that's a great big cat with black and yellow stripes) . The guy on top of the of the apc opened up with a 50 callber machine gun. This really poed (made him mad) the tiger. Ole tige attacked the APC and was finished by multiple rifle and pistol rpunds. So you're right too small of a defensive weapon can just make an assailant mad. This is probabbly why the Bradley fighting vehicle has a 20 mm.
One of my buddies was a Ranger in Vietnam and had a squad member eaten by a 900 lb tiger, Yes I know what they are. And the relevance to the discussion is what? Unless you are faced with something like this on an afternoon stroll.
http://www.americanhandgunner.com/lions-and-tigets-and-bears-—-for-real/
Every handgun is a compromise. What I have seen and experienced leads me to carry the most gun I can conceal and shoot well. That currently happens to be a Glock 31C in the cooler months and a Glock 27/33 in the warmer months. Using the weakest round in a marginal SD caliber, in a platform that almost defies accurate shot placement by all but the most adept sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. A snubbie is an expert’s gun; IMHO it does not belong in the hands of a novice.
What round works in one situation may not work in another, no two shootings are alike. If you are starting out with 200 or so FPE your margin for error or deviation is NIL. If you start out with 600-700 FPE you have a lot more to work with. Work requires energy. A 38 WC at 700 FPS is not cutting thru bone. I have seen my friend shot, it hit his pelvis and stopped. I have seen them bounce of ribs, break ribs and get stuck in the intercostal muscles, punch into the abdomen. A friend of mine shot a BG thru the heart with a 45 ACP gold dot, it punched a ¾” hole thru his heart, he was stone cold dead, and ran 3 blocks. Of all the gunshot wounds I have seen and treated (first aid) 38 special wounds were minor in comparison and a far cry from a hit by a 357 Magnum at 400-500 more FPS.
I love 357 magnum’s, it is just that my 3” model 13 is no longer in production, so replacing it would be difficult. My 640 PRO is my BUG. The Glock is smaller, lighter and carries 3 times the ammo and with Underwood GD’s I lose nothing in the power arena.
Using the weakest round in a marginal SD caliber, in a platform that almost defies accurate shot placement by all but the most adept sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. A snubbie is an expert’s gun; IMHO it does not belong in the hands of a novice.
"Marginal SD caliber"..."defies accurate shot placement by all but the most adept"...."A snubbie is an expert's gun".
As has already been mentioned there are several loads that take the 38Spl out of the so-called "marginal" category into serious self-defense territory even when shot from a 2" snubbie.
I doubt you would find this as interesting as your own experiences.
A long proven cartridge in an easily concealed, simple to operate and ultra-reliable platform that every novice I have introduced to the snubbie has been able to shoot accurately enough at common self-defense distances...well, I most certainly disagree with your notion that the "snubbie is an expert's gun".
Last edited:
Colorado Redneck
New member
Interesting read^^^ thanks for posting the link.
There are a variety of 38 cal WCs out there, 148gr swaged HBWC BHN around 6 to 8, 148gr swaged BBWC BHN around 6-8 the BBWC can be pushed harder.
And then we have the the cast WC BHN 12-15ish they are mostly found in the DEWC or BNWC configurations I prefer the latter.
These 148gr BNWC with a BHN of 15 can pushed much harder than the swaged HBWC as used for target loads, so when I think of the 38spl snubnose loaded with WCs it may be a different animal.
And then we have the the cast WC BHN 12-15ish they are mostly found in the DEWC or BNWC configurations I prefer the latter.
These 148gr BNWC with a BHN of 15 can pushed much harder than the swaged HBWC as used for target loads, so when I think of the 38spl snubnose loaded with WCs it may be a different animal.
As has already been mentioned there are several loads that take the 38Spl out of the so-called "marginal" category into serious self-defense territory even when shot from a 2" snubbie.
.38 Special
# of people shot - 199
# of hits - 373
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87
% of people who were not incapacitated - 17%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 55%
.357 (both magnum and Sig)
# of people shot - 105
# of hits - 179
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7
% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61%
You may not think that such a small percentage matters, but when bad people are doing bad things I want every advantage I can get.
A long proven cartridge in an easily concealed, simple to operate and ultra-reliable platform that every novice I have introduced to the snubbie has been able to shoot accurately enough at common self-defense distances...well, I most certainly disagree with your notion that the "snubbie is an expert's gun".
Define "common self-defense distances" and "shoot accurately enough". That is probably where we differ on opinion. I consider that minimum proficiency with any gun is to be able complete and pass an LE type qualification course. I do not feel that a 10" group at 10 yards under no stress to be proficient.
I wouldn't call 10" at 10 yards with no stress involved to be very proficient either. Any decent snubbie will do considerably better than that. They are harder to shoot well though. Light weight, short sight radius, abbreviated grip in almost every case, and in most cases a stiff double action pull. These things add up to a reliable concealable revolver that is more difficult to hit fast and well with.
..."I consider that minimum proficiency with any gun is to be able complete and pass an LE type qualification course..."
I don't agree. I doubt that half the folks in the "armed citizen" column every month in the American Rifleman could meet that standard. Yet, they defend themselves.
I don't agree. I doubt that half the folks in the "armed citizen" column every month in the American Rifleman could meet that standard. Yet, they defend themselves.
Proficient in accurate shooting, and being willing to shoot another person are two separate things.
One can adequately defend oneself if he is willing and able to pull the trigger at the right time even if he is a poor marksman, maybe. One can not adequately do the same if he is a superb marksman who hesitates or can not pull that trigger. Being willing to come out the other end no matter what is the most of it. Being a decent shot improves the odds considerably.
One can adequately defend oneself if he is willing and able to pull the trigger at the right time even if he is a poor marksman, maybe. One can not adequately do the same if he is a superb marksman who hesitates or can not pull that trigger. Being willing to come out the other end no matter what is the most of it. Being a decent shot improves the odds considerably.
To put the subject back on topic:
1. Is the general consensus that semi-wadcutters are a good choice as long as they are hollow points?
2. What's the difference between SWC, and just plain old wadcutters?
3. I've heard a lot about them, but I've never seen SWC ammo at any of the LGS in my area. where can I get some good, proven ones for SD?
4. There are a lot of new .38spl ammo types out there. Do SWC's still hold their own against Hornady CD, Speer Gold Dots, etc.?
1. Is the general consensus that semi-wadcutters are a good choice as long as they are hollow points?
2. What's the difference between SWC, and just plain old wadcutters?
3. I've heard a lot about them, but I've never seen SWC ammo at any of the LGS in my area. where can I get some good, proven ones for SD?
4. There are a lot of new .38spl ammo types out there. Do SWC's still hold their own against Hornady CD, Speer Gold Dots, etc.?
Here is an example of a killer wadcutter
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-155W-D.png
Notice the max meplat aka "nose"
Here is a SWC
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-160A-D.png
Here is a LSWC HP
Mouse Gun Addict Blog article 6-9-2012
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/06/remington-38-special-p-158-grain-lhp.html
Article from Handguns.com .38 SWC by Glen E. Fryxell
http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=24
Here are some choices from Midway USA - all good
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/13...38-special-148-grain-lead-wadcutter-box-of-50
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/17...mi-wadcutter-hollow-point-gas-check-box-of-20
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/54...ecial-p-158-grain-lead-hollow-point-box-of-50
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/23...38-special-148-grain-lead-wadcutter-box-of-50
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/92...38-special-150-grain-lead-wadcutter-box-of-20
I would use the 150 grain Buffalo Bore hard cast wadcutter
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-155W-D.png
Notice the max meplat aka "nose"
Here is a SWC
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-160A-D.png
Here is a LSWC HP
Mouse Gun Addict Blog article 6-9-2012
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/06/remington-38-special-p-158-grain-lhp.html
Article from Handguns.com .38 SWC by Glen E. Fryxell
http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=24
Here are some choices from Midway USA - all good
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/13...38-special-148-grain-lead-wadcutter-box-of-50
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/17...mi-wadcutter-hollow-point-gas-check-box-of-20
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/54...ecial-p-158-grain-lead-hollow-point-box-of-50
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/23...38-special-148-grain-lead-wadcutter-box-of-50
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/92...38-special-150-grain-lead-wadcutter-box-of-20
I would use the 150 grain Buffalo Bore hard cast wadcutter
Last edited:
Thanks for the info, but why woudl I want to use this target wadcutter for SD? Shouldn't I be using a hollow point?http://www.midwayusa.com/product/929...tter-box-of-20
I would use the 150 grain Buffalo Bore hard cast wadcutter
The answer to your question is adequate penetration.why woudl I want to use this target wadcutter for SD? Shouldn't I be using a hollow point?
A target WC bullet is just that, the velocity that it moves at makes all the difference.
That ain't your mama's "target wadcutter" - That load is a beast.
"Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches ) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel."
I've seen tests where it shoots through two feet of ballistic gelatin.
Here is Brass Fetcher video of "soft" Federal 148 grain "target wadcutter" for a J frame 642 wwith 2" barrel blowing through 12" of 20% ballistic gelatin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iolV5KOUtsc
The Buffalo Bore is hard cast and will punch through any human target.
"Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches ) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel."
I've seen tests where it shoots through two feet of ballistic gelatin.
Here is Brass Fetcher video of "soft" Federal 148 grain "target wadcutter" for a J frame 642 wwith 2" barrel blowing through 12" of 20% ballistic gelatin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iolV5KOUtsc
The Buffalo Bore is hard cast and will punch through any human target.
Last edited: