Redhawk5.5+P+
New member
Can you explain that with some basis besides just making a simple meaningless statement?
Snubby load?
- Thread starter ZVP
- Start date
Can you explain that with some basis besides just making a simple meaningless statement?
ZVP, for a fun challenge, try some long-range shooting; you will be surprised what a snub can do!
This is a video of Bob Munden taking a 200 yd shot with a J-frame!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Tied-t1fFsk
This is a video of Bob Munden taking a 200 yd shot with a J-frame!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Tied-t1fFsk
Buffalo Bore standard pressure 158gr LSWCHP is good medicine for a snubby. And I have no problems loading quickly with these. I wont carry anything else.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=110
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=110
As I mentioned in post #13.
I worked LE in the revolver era and as we transitioned to semi auto's kicking and screaming. I worked for the Ft Worth, Texas PD and the US Border Patrol in El Paso, TX during the 80's and 90's. I saw lots of people shot with lots of guns. In the 1980's RG revolvers in 38 special were very popular with the folks in the inner city. These people would usually buy their ammo one bullet at a time from a pawn shop, and they bought the cheapest. The cheapest usually translated to target wadcutters.
Most people I saw shot with wadcutters were angry, a significant number refused medical treatment articulating that it was "only a 38" and refused to press charges vowing revenge instead. Those folks usually did not do so well after a night of internal bleeding and some toxemia thrown in.
In my experience ( 25 years as a street cop) 38 wadcutters suck worse than anything else for personal protection. They are designed for low recoil target shooting. If you were to say increase the velocity to about 1000 fps, then you would have something.
Call me a liar if you want, but I know what I saw, investigated and experienced.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=111
BuffaloBore does a good job getting a 150gr WC going 850 FPSish from a 2" vented barrel at standard 38spl pressure. I can do the same at +P, shot placement will decide if the load is adequate.
DealHunter
New member
I've used Nyclads in my M&P 360 for when the wife might use it, otherwise I've heard that Hornady is coming out with a new "non +p" load (if you don't mind the pink box and pink polymer insert...) but it's only 90 grain I think (rather light I think)
http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Special-90-gr-FTX-Critical-Defense-lite/
http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Special-90-gr-FTX-Critical-Defense-lite/
Shot placement is largely luck. In a SD situation, you will most likely be grappling, wounded or diving to cover to keep from being wounded. You will probably not be using a proper stance. If you feel good with what many "experts" consider to be the minimum have fun. I like to have a margin for error.
thibaultfelix40
New member
Lethalality, stopping power and other bs
I am an old fart who has wagged a 22 a lot of miles. Every living thing I ever shot with a 22 , from hogs to grasshoppers has either dropped or ran off which is my goal in self defence. In combat people have had their foot blown off and kept running (check P.O.Ackley's book). When a person is drugged or pumped up, they may take a lot of stopping. The phrase " that little gun will only make them mad", loses the speaker a lot of creditalby with me but you are intitled to your opinion. My little friend is a 357.
I am an old fart who has wagged a 22 a lot of miles. Every living thing I ever shot with a 22 , from hogs to grasshoppers has either dropped or ran off which is my goal in self defence. In combat people have had their foot blown off and kept running (check P.O.Ackley's book). When a person is drugged or pumped up, they may take a lot of stopping. The phrase " that little gun will only make them mad", loses the speaker a lot of creditalby with me but you are intitled to your opinion. My little friend is a 357.
As already mentioned, Buffalo Bore sells standard pressure ammo specifically designed for short-barreled guns. I have some of this loaded in an older Model 49: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=110
They also have a standard pressure load using the Barnes DPX bullet: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=294
SGAmmo.com still has some of the Speer 125gr Gold Dots in standard pressure .38spl:
http://www.sgammo.com/product/speer...ld-dot-125-grain-standard-pressure-ammo-53722
They also have a standard pressure load using the Barnes DPX bullet: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=294
SGAmmo.com still has some of the Speer 125gr Gold Dots in standard pressure .38spl:
http://www.sgammo.com/product/speer...ld-dot-125-grain-standard-pressure-ammo-53722
The word hyperbole means exaggeration.
To state that shooting someone with a .38 wadcutter will "only" make them mad or angry is just silly. As I stated, I agree with you that it is a poor choice. If I taunted an aggressor about his fat mother THAT would only make him angry at best or "only". There would be no other possible effect of the action. Your experience can be whatever it is, but to make a blanket statement about all other possible shootings with the round from here to judgement day based on some belief that your personal experiences will generalize to all others does not wash. Do you have some thought that no shootings with the round in question has ever stopped an attack or resulted in quick or immediate incapacitation? Again, it is a poor choice especially from a snubby. It will however punch a .357 hole in someone deep enough to hit vitals.
The one and only shooting with a .38 Special wadcutter in which I knew the shooter personally resulted in one dead home invader in New Mexico with one center punch in 1979. I suppose I could state with some truthfulness that in my experience the .38 wadcutter is a one shot stopper 100% of the time, but I think it would be somewhat of an over statement don't you agree?
Bullets do weird things. Certainly some are much more effective at incapacitating an attacker than others all other things being equal. None of them are to utterly ineffective that the only across the board result from a hit will be an elevated anger level.
arizona98tj
New member
I just checked my logbook....looking through my records for my 2" J-frame. The 148 gr wadcutters I shot in the J-frame, which were light loads intended only for bullseye shooting, ran 701 FPS. That is pretty close to your stated velocity.
Am I correct in my understanding that the people you referenced (inner city whatevers) were using light weight target hand loads for self defense?
From Guns and Ammo Handguns web site article "Wicked Wadcutters" dated 9-24-2010
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/24/ammunition_hg_wickedwadcutters_200901/
From Buffalo Bore web site on their hard cast "Anti-Personnel" wad cutters:
"This load is designed to cause disabling terminal effect, combined with the penetration required to cause fast incapacitation on human sized targets from any angle. The big flat wad cutter nose crushes living tissue as it passes through, unlike mushroomed bullets that are slightly rounded on the nose and tend to slip and slide through living material. The crushing action of the flat nose keeps penetration straight and thus deep. The hard cast construction will not deform on flesh and bone at these velocities so the nose profile remains constant along with bullet path and terminal damage. Full wad cutter profiles in large calibers (like .45 and .44) hit like a truck and do massive permanent damage. Noted NYPD “stake out” officer and gun fighter Jim Cirillo used full wad cutters in his 38 SPL revolvers because they incapacitated his targets with certainty."
and for the Buffalo Bore hard cast 150 grain .38 wad cutter:
Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It cuts/crushes a "cookie cutter", full diameter hole in human flesh just like it does on a paper target. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches in human tissue) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. Although I've never been shot with a full profile wad cutter bullet, I must assume that the initial impact of that wide flat nosed bullet, is crushingly formidable. As a teenager, I took to the woods on a regular basis and killed many a critter with heavily loaded 38SPL wad cutters'. The effect of a full profile wad cutter on small game was obvious and amazing, compared to regular round nosed bullets. That flat nose, literally hammers living things. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel. Note my velocities from real world "over the counter" revolver s- NOT TEST BARRELS!
a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel - 890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel - 961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel - 1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)
I'm debating - believe Buffalo Bore or believe......
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/24/ammunition_hg_wickedwadcutters_200901/
From Buffalo Bore web site on their hard cast "Anti-Personnel" wad cutters:
"This load is designed to cause disabling terminal effect, combined with the penetration required to cause fast incapacitation on human sized targets from any angle. The big flat wad cutter nose crushes living tissue as it passes through, unlike mushroomed bullets that are slightly rounded on the nose and tend to slip and slide through living material. The crushing action of the flat nose keeps penetration straight and thus deep. The hard cast construction will not deform on flesh and bone at these velocities so the nose profile remains constant along with bullet path and terminal damage. Full wad cutter profiles in large calibers (like .45 and .44) hit like a truck and do massive permanent damage. Noted NYPD “stake out” officer and gun fighter Jim Cirillo used full wad cutters in his 38 SPL revolvers because they incapacitated his targets with certainty."
and for the Buffalo Bore hard cast 150 grain .38 wad cutter:
Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It cuts/crushes a "cookie cutter", full diameter hole in human flesh just like it does on a paper target. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches in human tissue) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. Although I've never been shot with a full profile wad cutter bullet, I must assume that the initial impact of that wide flat nosed bullet, is crushingly formidable. As a teenager, I took to the woods on a regular basis and killed many a critter with heavily loaded 38SPL wad cutters'. The effect of a full profile wad cutter on small game was obvious and amazing, compared to regular round nosed bullets. That flat nose, literally hammers living things. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel. Note my velocities from real world "over the counter" revolver s- NOT TEST BARRELS!
a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel - 890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel - 961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel - 1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)
I'm debating - believe Buffalo Bore or believe......
2damnold4this
New member
From DocKGR
link:
With few exceptions, the vast majority of .38 Sp JHP's fail to expand when fired from 2" barrels in the 4 layer denim test. Many of the lighter JHP's demonstrate overexpansion and insufficient penetration in bare gel testing. Also, the harsher recoil of the +P loads in lightweight J-frames tends to minimize practice efforts and decrease accuracy for many officers. The 158 gr +P LSWCHP offers adequate penetration, however in a 2" revolver the 158gr +P LSWCHP does not reliably expand. If it fails to expand, it will produce less wound trauma than a WC. Target wadcutters offer good penetration, cut tissue efficiently, and have relatively mild recoil. With wadcutters harder alloys and sharper leading edges are the way to go. Wadcutters perform exactly the same in both bare and 4 layer denim covered gel when fired from a 2" J-frame.
And DocKGR quoting from Dr. Martin Fackler's article: The Full Wadcutter--An Extremely Effective Bullet Design", Wound Ballistics Review. 4(2):6-7, Fall 1999):
"As a surgeon by profession, I am impressed by bullets with a cutting action (eg. Winchester Talon and Remington Golden Saber). Cutting is many times more efficient at disrupting tissue than the crushing mechanism by which ordinary bullets produce the hole through which they penetrate. The secret to the increased efficiency of the full wadcutter bullet is the cutting action of its sharp circumferential leading edge. Actually, cutting is simply very localized crush; by decreasing the area over which a given force is spread, we can greatly increase the magnitude to the amount of force delivered per unit are--which is a fancy way of saying that sharp knives cut a lot better than dull ones. As a result, the calculation of forces on tissue during penetration underestimate the true effectiveness of the wadcutter bullet relative to other shapes."
Doc KGR goes on at the link to recommend several JHPs for use in snubbies but most are +Ps. The one standard pressure JHP that he recommends is standard pressure Hornady Critical Defense. I'd use either that or some sort of hard cast full wadcutter in my snubby if it wasn't rated for +P. A Keith style semiwadcutter would be a second choice.
link:
With few exceptions, the vast majority of .38 Sp JHP's fail to expand when fired from 2" barrels in the 4 layer denim test. Many of the lighter JHP's demonstrate overexpansion and insufficient penetration in bare gel testing. Also, the harsher recoil of the +P loads in lightweight J-frames tends to minimize practice efforts and decrease accuracy for many officers. The 158 gr +P LSWCHP offers adequate penetration, however in a 2" revolver the 158gr +P LSWCHP does not reliably expand. If it fails to expand, it will produce less wound trauma than a WC. Target wadcutters offer good penetration, cut tissue efficiently, and have relatively mild recoil. With wadcutters harder alloys and sharper leading edges are the way to go. Wadcutters perform exactly the same in both bare and 4 layer denim covered gel when fired from a 2" J-frame.
And DocKGR quoting from Dr. Martin Fackler's article: The Full Wadcutter--An Extremely Effective Bullet Design", Wound Ballistics Review. 4(2):6-7, Fall 1999):
"As a surgeon by profession, I am impressed by bullets with a cutting action (eg. Winchester Talon and Remington Golden Saber). Cutting is many times more efficient at disrupting tissue than the crushing mechanism by which ordinary bullets produce the hole through which they penetrate. The secret to the increased efficiency of the full wadcutter bullet is the cutting action of its sharp circumferential leading edge. Actually, cutting is simply very localized crush; by decreasing the area over which a given force is spread, we can greatly increase the magnitude to the amount of force delivered per unit are--which is a fancy way of saying that sharp knives cut a lot better than dull ones. As a result, the calculation of forces on tissue during penetration underestimate the true effectiveness of the wadcutter bullet relative to other shapes."
Doc KGR goes on at the link to recommend several JHPs for use in snubbies but most are +Ps. The one standard pressure JHP that he recommends is standard pressure Hornady Critical Defense. I'd use either that or some sort of hard cast full wadcutter in my snubby if it wasn't rated for +P. A Keith style semiwadcutter would be a second choice.
Carry what you want. I do not carry, nor "recommend" 38 specials or wadcutters.
I am neither a combat dentist nor a military surgeon or a physicist, I did not read it from a book or the internet. I am just an old cop that saw first hand. If I am not credible to you so what, don't listen to me listen to people who are in the business to make money from myth and legend.
I am neither a combat dentist nor a military surgeon or a physicist, I did not read it from a book or the internet. I am just an old cop that saw first hand. If I am not credible to you so what, don't listen to me listen to people who are in the business to make money from myth and legend.