Smokeless M/L mishap

Hydrogen Sulfide

I was training director for an major construction company that engaged in utility installation which included excavation with the potential to expose workers to concentrated quantities of hydrogen sulfide.

The work rules imposed by OSHA were only in effect when the gas was to be found in, and workers were required to work in, a "confined space" This included among other things, large diameter drainage pipe, underground vaults, and excavations more than four feet deep where the width is less than the depth. (Not the exact wording but the essence of the wording)

We had sensors which we carried into the confined spaces to detect hydrogen sulfide as well as three other atmospheric conditions. I know that we entered some pretty abnoxious places and in seven years we never once had an alarm on one of these sensors. The rule of thumb was, "If you can smell it, it is too late." But the experience was that most people have a nose that is more sensitive than the sensor. In virtually every case, we could smell the rotten eggs before the sensor went into alarm (As I have said, they never did.)

That says to me that the concentration of the gas which is deemed by NIOSH, (the folks who recommend the level at which the sensors should be set to alarm) is higher than the level that is present when you begin to smell the gas.

In the open, I only occassionaly smell rotten eggs when I am shooting....Maybe a dozen times in my life. I acknowledge that my nose is not a precision instrument. I have been shooting black powder for quite a number of years and to my knowledge, the hydrogen sulfide to which I have been exposed while shooting has had a far less deliterious effect than the arguments that I have with my wife.

The smoke produced by a black powder weapon does have a negative impact and that is that many indoor ranges will not permit the use of plack powder weapons. I don't find this to be too objectionable since I never shoot indoors anyway. I do understand that some might cite this as a disadvantage.

But for me, the presence of the hydrogen sulfide that is produced by the firing of a black powder weapon is a red herring. I don't go along with it as a disadvantage for those who shoot in the open.
 
Hydrogen sulfide

Heavier than air so it seeks the lowest point in a space, displacing the lighter breathable air. This means that it drops toward the ground in the open. You would have to get onto your knees or lay prone in order to breath it.

500 PPM can be lethal. This level can be relied upon to produce unconsciousness. Once revived the victim may appear to be completely normal however, long term headaches and memory loss may persist.

33 PPM is harmless. Our sensors were set to alarm at 20 PPM.

Hydrogen sulfide is expelled from the human body as a natural part of food digestion. (If you stay away from black powder you might also want to avoid beans)

I personally am not going to avoid black powder because of hydrogen sulfide.
 
Doc Hoy said:
Hydrogen sulfide
Heavier than air so it seeks the lowest point in a space, displacing the lighter breathable air. This means that it drops toward the ground in the open. You would have to get onto your knees or lay prone in order to breath it.
Click to expand...

I agree that H2S is not a singular reason to not use BP. It is, however, part of a long list. In general, H2S will sink to the ground but it's hardly instantaneous. The cloud of smoke that's blown back in your face has plenty of it still in there.

BP is great stuff for shooting sports that require it to be used. If you've got this sense of nostalgia that makes you happy when you shoot the stuff then great, have at it.

This claim that BP is "better" though is just illogical. It's like arguing that a 2-man cross cut saw is better than a chain saw.
 
The holy black is better in certain situations:

  • Black powder is better in damascus barrels, as it has lower pressures and is safer
  • Black powder is better in large volume cartridges because it leaves no air space and ignites consistently
  • Black powder is better in the way that standard deviation (fps) spread from shot to shot is far closer than smokeless, so even at the low speeds bullets will have very little difference in trajectory at long range
  • Black powder is better in a survival scenario- if it becomes wet, it can be dried out and reused. Smokeless cannot.
  • Black powder is better as a food item. I have heard, but never confirmed that when potassium nitrate couldn't be obtained for making corned beef, black powder was substituted. (I don't believe it myself, but I've heard it) Smokeless contains no nitrates, but if eaten, the nitroglycern in it might effect your heart in a way you won't like.

However, it is worse in other areas:
  • Black powder is worse because its reside attracts moisture and may cause rust or corrosion
  • Black powder is worse because it does tent to foul a bit, and is not good for small bore or extreme bottleneck cartridges
  • Black powder is worse because the burn rate cannot be adjusted
  • Black powder is worse because it can't be sold through your local store unless it has a special license for it.
  • Black powder is worse because high velocity cannot be achieved
 
Last edited:
The holy black is better in certain situations:
Black powder is better in damascus barrels, as it has lower pressures and is safer
Black powder is better in large volume cartridges because it leaves no air space and ignites consistently
Black powder is better in the way that standard deviation (fps) spread from shot to shot is far closer than smokeless, so even at the low speeds bullets will have very little difference in trajectory at long range
Black powder is better in a survival scenario- if it becomes wet, it can be dried out and reused. Smokeless cannot.
Black powder is better as a food item. I have heard, but never confirmed that when potassium nitrate couldn't be obtained for making corned beef, black powder was substituted. (I don't believe it myself, but I've heard it) Smokess contains no nitrates, but if eaten, the nitroglycern in it might effect your heart in a way you won't like.
Click to expand...

And all of the above (except one) are absolutely meaningless when talking about modern muzzleloaders, as we are...or were.

Zhe Wiz
 
The first three do apply to modern muzzleloaders.

Because it has lower pressures, it is safer if someone "overloads" a gun. (#1)
If an overload of smokeless is thrown in there- I hope the feller has good insurance.

I would say that if you want to shoot long range with a modern muzzleloader- whether hunting or target shooting- black powder must be used. Otherwise, the feller with the Gibbs will eat your lunch. (#2,3)

Also, black powder isn't temperature sensitive. Some smokeless powders don't work so well in sub-zero temperatures like they occasionally have around Minot ND. ;)
 
Andy Griffith said:
The holy black is better in certain situations:
Black powder is better in damascus barrels, as it has lower pressures and is safer
Click to expand...

Which are made (essentially) only FOR BP, which means that the barrels essential exist for BP and BP exists for the barrels. That's hard to call an "advantage". Get a modern barrel.

Andy Griffith said:
Black powder is better in large volume cartridges because it leaves no air space and ignites consistently
Click to expand...

So do many smokeless powder, not the least of which is Trail Boss, a modern smokeless powder designed to replicate BP pressure without the BP problems.

Andy Griffith said:
Black powder is better in the way that standard deviation (fps) spread from shot to shot is far closer than smokeless, so even at the low speeds bullets will have very little difference in trajectory at long range
Click to expand...

Smaller SDs do not necessarily equate to accuracy and are quite often meaningless. What is the record smallest 1000 yard group for BP?

Andy Griffith said:
Black powder is better in a survival scenario- if it becomes wet, it can be dried out and reused. Smokeless cannot.
Click to expand...

Yes, in fact, smokeless powder CAN be dried out and reused. Water is a known method for PRESERVING smokeless powder. In fact, it has been reported that Alliant has a 100 year old sample of Unique that is kept UNDER WATER and dried out for testing. Water converts nitrocellulose to a stable gelatin and prevents deterioration.

Andy Griffith said:
Black powder is better as a food item. I have heard, but never confirmed that when potassium nitrate couldn't be obtained for making corned beef, black powder was substituted. (I don't believe it myself, but I've heard it) Smokeless contains no nitrates, but if eaten, the nitroglycern in it might effect your heart in a way you won't like.
Click to expand...

Ok.... uh, I'll give you that one....
 
Hydrogen sulfide

Heavier than air so it seeks the lowest point in a space, displacing the lighter breathable air. This means that it drops toward the ground in the open. You would have to get onto your knees or lay prone in order to breath it.

500 PPM can be lethal. This level can be relied upon to produce unconsciousness. Once revived the victim may appear to be completely normal however, long term headaches and memory loss may persist.

33 PPM is harmless. Our sensors were set to alarm at 20 PPM.

Hydrogen sulfide is expelled from the human body as a natural part of food digestion. (If you stay away from black powder you might also want to avoid beans)

I personally am not going to avoid black powder because of hydrogen sulfide.
__________________
Doc
Click to expand...

Since there is no hydrogen in black powder, I have a hard time understanding how hydrogen sulfide can result from burning black powder. Maybe sulfur dioxide reacts with water vapor to form H2S?:confused:

Anyway, the danger of hydrogen sulfide in a confined space, such as the inside of an empty oil storage silo, is the fact that the human nose loses its ability to smell the stuff after a minute or so of exposure so you may indeed succumb to H2S without even being aware that you are being exposed to it. That's why workers have to wear H2S sensors when entering places like that.

H2S is not a cumulative poison like lead or mercury. If it was, our flatulence would have killed us long ago.
 
I think that the toxicity of black powder combustion byproducts in an open space may be a little exaggerated. For sure, there are toxins in the smoke, but it's necessary to have a sense of perspective. While a consistent analysis of the combustion byproducts is a little tough because of variability of some of the components, combustion of black powder creates roughly 50% solids and 50% gases.

The solids: Potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate, potassium sulfide, sulfur, potassium nitrate, potassium thiocyanate, carbon and ammonium carbonate.

The gases: carbon dioxide, nitrogen, carbon monoxide, hydrogen sulfide, hydrogen and methane.

There's also a little bit of water.

What's toxic? Well, pretty much everything there, in high enough concentrations. A black powder firearm, discharged in open air produces minute quantities of dangerous sulfides.

Now, if you've got it in your head that sulfides from black powder are going to harm you, I guess that's OK - you're entitled to think what you want. But you'd better stay away from swamps, petroleum refineries and Fourth of July fireworks.

BLE, the hydrogen sulfide is a byproduct of the reaction of charcoal and sulfur at high temperatures. There is a small amount of hydrogen in the charcoal which combines with the sulfur to produce an even smaller amount of hydrogen sulfide.
 
Last edited:
To BLE

You said,''Anyway, the danger of hydrogen sulfide in a confined space, such as the inside of an empty oil storage silo, is the fact that the human nose loses its ability to smell the stuff after a minute or so of exposure so you may indeed succumb to H2S without even being aware that you are being exposed to it."

And that is very true. Our workers would constantly report that the "nasties" had dissipated and that there was no need to ventilate. (Setting up the ventilation and working around it was a pain in the neck.) This is because as you say, the workers' noses became desensitized. Our attitude was that if they could smell anything when entering the space, we ventilated for the duration of the stay. That was as much for comfort as for safety.
 
Guys.... the whole Hydrogen Sulfide thing is a teeny, tiny part of discussion. I agree that there is likely not enough H2S in the smoke to be harmful. Let's forget all about the Hydrogen Sulfide. Take it right off the list of negatives. Ok?

Now, let's debate the major issues.
 
I jus' have to say it

"Black Powder is Better!"

When ammo and smokeless powder are no longer available don't call on us Black powder makers to give you the natural ingreediances:)
 
When ammo and smokeless powder are no longer available don't call on us Black powder makers to give you the natural ingreediances
Click to expand...

That's OK, I think I saw it on Mythbusters once...or was it Capt. Kirk on Star Trek? Ahh, whatever, I forget. I'm sure I could Google it. ;)

Until then? I'm staying smokeless!! :)

Zhe Wiz
 
Good to see your name on the board again.
Click to expand...

Thanks Doc ... as you may know I've been recoverin' and stayin' alive.

I was refered here to see if the site was up from one of the guys on my BPR
Forum. I see it's up and workin' jus' fine.
Glad to see all is well and the people that don't know a dang thing about grace and honor in a forum conversation are still at it only under differant names ranting the same dull useless words.
I've got nothin' to say to those people who think modern inlines are black powder Muzzleloaders that should only be shootin' smokeless...same goes for those playn with reproduction revolvers and too much of a smokeless load.
I'm not too into this conversation Doc but wanted to say hi.
So i best leave beforeit kills me sittin' here readin' this crap.
My opinion and it's my $.02:cool:

Laters,

SG
ADMIN BPR forum
 
savage muzzeloader kaboom

just because somone is disgrundeld with a former employer doesnt mean they will perjer themselves,and or risk there lives by employing a dangerous scenierio,im not going to be prejudicial,ive searched the wed and found about every popular model gun,has at one time blown up for what ever reason,and ive herd combat stories that describe malfunction horror! allways mark your ram rod,for your load,and doublu check it,your life depends upon it.:cool:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top