Smokeless M/L mishap

Oh, do tell.... What exactly does BP offer that smokeless does not? I mean, besides the toxic cloud, corrosive residue and cleaning after every shot to maintain accuracy?
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How about 5-10 fps or less deviation in 10 shot string.White powder shooters only dream such deviation.
 
Don't forget long barrel life and the opportunity to craft your own boolits. I clean after I get thru shooting with BPCR's and c&b pistols, swab it out after every few rounds with a muzzleloader. As I've said before, my BP guns clean up faster than my smokeless guns.
Did I mention big boom and blue smoke? Catch me at the range and I'll put some history at the tip of your trigger finger and a smile on your face. I'm kinda new at it and after 3-4 years it still fascinates me.
Some of the guys on this forum have been re-discovering the wonders of black powder shooting for over 30 yrs and are still excited by it. Some amazing technology was lost with the adoption of smokeless powder.
 
Thanks, but I've had all the experience with BP that I care to have. It constituted 4 shots. I picked up my fathers ML, looked it over and thought "My God! He's never cleaned this thing since he bought it!" So, I cleaned it up, which was NOT faster than cleaning my rifles. "There" thought I "Ready to go". I loaded it up, went out and fired the shot. I brought the gun back in, looked it over and thought "My God! This thing looks like it's never been cleaned since he bought it!"

I cleaned it again and that day and subsequent days I fired a total of 4 shots. BP is filthy beyond imagination. It stinks. The fumes are toxic. The smoke obstructs your view of the target. It's more dangerous than smokeless. SD of shot strings is not terribly important, particularly when BP, smokeless ML and "normal" rifles can all shoot better than most shooters.

No thanks. I've experienced BP. You can have all of it.
 
i always get a good laugh when i see people posting that BP smoke is toxic :D Better wear gloves too when you handle the bullets. And for all smoke, its harmful. Even the polluted air you breathe..... is toxic. The oil you get on your hands while servicing your vechicle is ...... toxic....
 
i always get a good laugh when i see people posting that BP smoke is toxic
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It's not the deciding factor. It's a contributing factor. Just like the oil for your car. Imagine if you had a cheaper, cleaner, easier and safer alternative to regular motor oil. Would any one of those things by themselves make you change? Probably not, unless the difference was drastic, but all of them together make a compelling argument. Well, in the case of BP vs Smokeless you've got all those things. The price of smokeless is equal or very often less. Smokeless is cleaner, safer and just as easy to use. There are very few (arguably no) downsides to smokeless powder and there are numerous advantages.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people shouldn't use BP. If you've got that nostalgia thing going on then go for it..... but don't claim BP is "better". There's not even a case to be made.
 
peetzakilla said:
I fired a total of 4 shots
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Well, with all that experience I guess you really are an expert after all. I should have realized that someone with your vast level of involvement would know all there is to know about the subject. Guess you really taught me a lesson.:barf:
 
Well, with all that experience I guess you really are an expert after all. I should have realized that someone with your vast level of involvement would know all there is to know about the subject. Guess you really taught me a lesson.
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If you take a moment to look at what I said, instead of making this personal, then you might understand my point.

Filthy.

Not easier to clean.

Clouds of smoke.

How many shots to I have to take to understand those things?

Does BP get cleaner if I shoot 100 shots? 1000? I don't think so, but maybe someone who's an "expert" can enlighten me.:rolleyes:
 
Does BP get cleaner if I shoot 100 shots? 1000? I don't think so, but maybe someone who's an "expert" can enlighten me.
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60 million Buffalo can't be wrong!,your ignorance of B/P is beyond any ones ability to "enlighten you".
Why do you bother with a subject you have no prcatical experience with? B/P is every thing that "white powder" is not.:confused:
 
Well, I've seen lots of reasons to stay smokeless, but no one's given me any reason to switch to BP except that a big boom and clouds of smoke are cool. I agree with that, by the way, but they are not things that improve my shooting or make it more fun for me.

This argument is going the way all smokeless vs BP arguments go. The BP guys want to blindly stay BP for no apparent reason. The smokeless guys want to stay smokeless because, in nearly every way, it is better.

I'll say what I always say. If you are invested in BP and don't want to switch, great. But, assume you have NO investment in either. Could you honestly tell your buddy that BP is a better way to go? Really? Because I spent a LOT of time researching that point, and I couldn't justify BP to myself when smokeless alternatives exist. I certainly couldn't (with a straight face) tell anyone they should get a BP muzzleloader because it's better than a smokeless alternative. Cheaper? Yes, but better? No way.

Zhe Wiz
 
60 million Buffalo can't be wrong!,your ignorance of B/P is beyond any ones ability to "enlighten you".
Why do you bother with a subject you have no prcatical experience with? B/P is every thing that "white powder" is not.
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I'm still waiting for what this "everything" is.

So far, we've established that BP has two things that smokeless is not:

1)Corrosive
2)Clouds of smoke

What am I missing. Please, enlighten me.

All I'm seeing so far are ad hominem attacks, no facts at all.

As Zhe Wiz points out above, the ONLY advantage to BP is that the guns are cheaper.

Let's have it. What are the advantages?
 
This argument is going the way all smokeless vs BP arguments go. The smokeless guys want to blindly stay smokeless for no apparent reason. The PB guys want to stay BP because, in nearly every way, it is better.

What am I missing. Please, enlighten me.

All I'm seeing so far are ad hominem attacks, no facts at all.

Let's have it. What are the advantages?
 
As Ronald Reagan always said, "Well...."

There are two kinds of advantages.

There are those advantages that can be mutually agreed upon by the vast majority of some informed population. As an example, we all agree that passing healthcare was a bad idea.

On the other hand there are those advantages that are perceived by the individual. These need not be agreed upon by anyone since the strength of their inclusion of the category we call advantages rest upon the opinion of the person who is calling them advantages. As an example, I like Chevy trucks.

I will speak on the second type:

I think black powder is MORE FUN than cartridge/smokeless powder. To me that is the advantage.
 
Hey, I shoot both - each has its own appeal. I get just as much of a kick out of sending a carefully handloaded .30-30 round downrange as I do making a big ol' cloud of smelly smoke with a .58 cal minie ball.

I do have to admit that the sheer novelty of black powder is an absolute kick in the pants. Once you've popped off that first round, everyone is your buddy :D

No sense arguing about it, though. If it's not for you, that's fine.
 
I think black powder is MORE FUN than cartridge/smokeless powder. To me that is the advantage.
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You know what? That's the kind of advantage and opinion I can respect. I get that, and it's a completely reasonable justification for going BP. I recognize I'm more of a "facts" and "logic" kind of decision maker. Hey, I'm a programmer, what do you want? :-) I am also heavily swayed by my dislike of cleaning firearms. I LOVE shooting them, HATE cleaning them. Plus, with a family, I don't always have time to clean them as soon as I return from the field. Don't get me wrong, I do keep my guns clean, I just don't LIKE the job.

I don't like it when people attempt to spread FUD about smokeless muzzleloaders and their safety (or lack thereof) due to one guy's (with an axe to grind) ability to blow one up. I can blow up a BP gun too. In general, this thread has been devoid of that, but I question the motives of a couple of posters. :-)

Smokeless is definitely the way to go for me due to several advantages which have been posted above ("mykeal" apparently missed them all, but hey, most have taken the time to R E A D them!) so I won't repeat them again.

So there ya go, opinions are like...oh wait, can't say that...and I have one too. :-)

Zhe Wiz
 
That's OK, Peetzah! You tried it, didn't like it. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. I'll never get into a "BP is better" argument because I like and understand both. If you'd like someone to show you how to do it right someone here will be happy to do it. If you find yourself in the N TX area it will be my pleasure. Every time my BP guns go to the range I get curious looks, questions and often I let someone shoot it if they want.
I'll admit: it's big, dirty, noisy fun! Oh yeah, there's that history thing too.
Back on topic, I damaged a BP barrel thru improper loading before I understood the peculiarities of BP. The damage was an annoying bulge, not a massive rupture. I've seen other rifles damaged while firing and there's little doubt someone set out to blow up this rifle and had a spectacular success, or failure, depending on your point of view. An essential part of the recipe for this disaster was a barrel obstruction and that can't be blamed on the designer or manufacturer.
 
peetzakilla, I for one would like to know why you weighed in on a subject that you obviously:
1. Don't like
2. Don't do
If you are a CAS shooter and enjoy the "speed-run" senario that it's become, then by all mean's stick with smokeless. However, if you are into being period correct and accurate, not just fast (as Wyatt Earp suggested, "Be slow in a hurry"), which obviously you aren't, there would be no question about using BP as your choice as a propellant. Stick to what you know, enjoy the crap out of it and let us "primitive", BP'ers not have to explain why we do what we do to someone who doesn't really give a crap about our hobby. Thanks.
 
Peetzakiller - I think you're mistaking noxious for toxic. If black powder was toxic, EPA would treat it like carbon dioxide. To them, it would be just another way to ban the sport.
 
Wow - I've been transported back in time, to what? 1890 or 1900?

Why are y'all arguing which is better between black powder and smokeless powder?

Might as well argue whether cats or dogs are better pets. (Cats are better!;))

In today's world, BP and smokeless are two totally different animals used in completely different ways.

If you like BP, then shoot it. If you don't, well... don't.
 
In today's world, BP and smokeless are two totally different animals used in completely different ways.
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Except in the case of muzzleloaders, where they are used almost identically, and that's the context of this discussion.

Zhe Wiz
 
4v50 Gary said:
Peetzakiller - I think you're mistaking noxious for toxic. If black powder was toxic, EPA would treat it like carbon dioxide. To them, it would be just another way to ban the sport.
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It's not the BP itself that's toxic. It's the smoke. The smoke contains Hydrogen Sulfide, which is extremely toxic and is also responsible for the "rotten egg" smell.




I've got no argument with anyone who uses BP because they personally think that it's fun, or who participate in shooting events that require it. Have at it.
 
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