Smith Carbine: Original Load Data?

I've never heard of post civil war units being armed with them.
Click to expand...

During the Northfield bank robbery of 1876, a university student named Henry Wheeler happened to be in town and was armed with a Smith carbine when the gunplay began in the street. Wheeler was in a 2nd floor hotel room. He saw Jim Cummins, one of the robbers, trying to make a run for it after he or one of his fellows shot Nicholas Gustavson dead. Wheeler took aim from the window at Cummins, now a fast moving target galloping down the street, his first shot shattering Cummins' right shoulder and effectively disabled him from using his six-shooters.

Wheeler then spotted Bob Younger hiding behind a staircase trading gunfire with the townsmen that have now gathered. Only able to see Younger's arm behind the cover, Wheeler's second shot blew Younger's arm clean off. That is what a 350 grain lead flatpoint traveling at just under 1000fps does to human appendages, the robbers probably realized, too late of course. For all their trouble, guess what the James gang netted in the robbery...

Just $26.70, thats it, and of course, a death bounty placed on all of their heads. Not even Mastercard can beat this priceless deal, can they?
 
Very Interesting indeed. Wheeler displayed Miller's skeleton in his office! Hows that for a trophy? :eek: I read another article that stated the body that was given to Milers family could have been Bill Chadwell. On another note, from the post mortem photo it looks like Miller took that bullet in the shoulder.
 
Last edited:
Back to the Smith. So what kind of range are we talking here with this Carbine? Is she effective on say a 4 legged critter at 100 yards or less?? I think this thing is the cats meow. Its everything I LIKED about an inline (ease of cleaning) and everything I like about a sidelock. But that whole 50 grains of powder or less doesn't sit well with me. Maybe some triple 7 will get things back to that 1000fps ya'll were talking about.
 
Back to the Smith. So what kind of range are we talking here with this Carbine? Is she effective on say a 4 legged critter at 100 yards or less??
Click to expand...

You might have to use paper cartridges and spend some time shooting it at distance but it should be good for 150 yds or better on a deer depending on your prowess.
 
There is not even the faintest possibility of containing the pressure using anything approaching a "paper" cartridge in today's context. Unlike the Sharps, the Smith is not a sealed chamber by any stretch of design.

Put 40-some odd grains of 3F in the standard plastic case under a 350gr lead bullet at 950fps and open sights for 100yards dependable medium game up through White Tail.

Do NOT try to "magnumize" what is an otherwise superb little battle carbine over it's deliberate design requiring a strong sealing case... or you'll be picking powder granules out of your face.
 
It's not so much that I'm trying to make a magnum out of it, I am just trying to find out why today's rubber cases can only hold 80% of the power the originals could.
 
Is it a shorter case / chamber as compared to the original?
Click to expand...

From my research, the rubber cases and especially the metal cases today don't have the same internal power capacity as the originals. They are specifically made smaller, as lighter power charges can produce the best accuracy. This is beneficial for skirmishers and reenactors, but not so much for people interested in historical accuracy.
 
Even with the 360 grain bullet it had less muzzle energy than a .30 M1 carbine cartridge.

As for why the cartridges today hold less powder, probably a couple of reasons...

1. They're designed to be reused. Repeatedly. Which means that they need to be a lot heavier.

2. The original cartridges were used in new guns in good condition.

3. Today's cartridges might be used in antique guns that have better than 150 years of wear and tear on them.
 
A 350-360gr/50-caliber bullet doing (let's say) 900fps upon impact is devastating to the human body it hits. Maybe not full-up 460gr/58Minie-ball category... but those fall into the godawful regime. (The old slow-moving/very heavy/expanding/pure lead bullet effect don'cha know.)

That said, the internal sdes of the classic /original Smith tube are (have to be) pretty well fixed -- .505 or so. The base may be a bit thinner for one-time use, and therefore give a little extra room for powder.

If you want, you could drill out the base of a modern plastic case base with a 1/2" drill to get slightly more volume -- but I'd suggest diminishing returns are setting at this point.
 
Last edited:
The reusable metallic cartridges have a reduced shank on the base, which cuts down on the usable powder space.

The big question is the length of today's reproductions vs original cartridges. The Smith has a fairly long and gentle leade, meaning overall cartridge length wasn't super critical.
 
I was just about to cry out "NO!" to the paper cartridge idea but mehavey beat me to it.

There is a reason why the breech-locking spring is so tight and such a pain for those who do speed shooting. That spring is the only thing that is keeping the breech from opening upon firing, and the casing itself rocketing out of the chamber still being propelled by burning powder, right into the shooter's face.
So I would not even think about modifying that spring, and put on some winter gloves instead so as not to get "bitten" by sharp metal edges while working the action.

Come to think of it, the Smith is designed in a VERY SIMILAR way to a modern infantry howitzer, (WWII - present day), ones still in widespread use across the world. Where the shell is ejected through that open breech immediately upon firing. The Smith is a shoulder-fired version of that thing.

By the way, Pietta is not the only guys making the cartridge casings for the Smith. If I am correct, several domestic manufacturers are making the casing also, from both brass and plastic. We could contact them so they can know that there is also considerable demand for larger capacity casings, and they can make one with a deeper reamed bottom.

As for power levels of the current cartridges, a 350 grain flatpoint or roundnose traveling at 800-900fps is far more powerful than any service pistol cartridge or cap and ball revolver load. It can be compared to a .44 Magnum or .454 Casull roughly in terms of kinetic energy. If .454 can take down a grizzly bear, the Smith should be up to the task also. Add that with proper shot placement, and I don't see any problem hunting big game with it. As a matter of fact, I would place the Smith on the list of powerful and dependable survival rifles that are easily packable, whether for an afternoon stroll in the woods or an extended wilderness trip.
 
Last edited:
The paper used in making original paper cartridges was a very heavy paper, almost flexible cardboard, certainly nothing like the combustible cartridges used in the Sharps or Colt revolvers.

It may have been the same type of paper used to make cartridges for the Springfield Rifled Musket of the same era.

This discussion thread has some EXCELLENT photographs of original Smith paper cartridges:

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/smith-carbine-vs-sharps-carbine-to-purchase.116735/

I'm not 100% sure, but I THINK that the Poultney & Trimble cartridges (they were a very prolific manufacturer of a variety of cartridges, including Gallagher carbine rounds) used the sandwich of paper and metal foil.
 
Look at this photo from Mike's Link above:
http://civilwartalk.com/attachments/smith-0119smith_1-jpg.76616/

It gives the reader the perspective of how thick those (paper) tube walls were
-- had to be -- in order to have bullet OD inside, and chamber ID outside.

That's a whole different game that what folks think of when saying "paper cartridge."
(and I don't know where I'd get`em or how I'd make`em) :confused: ;) :D

The repro plastic cases are effectively the same dimensions inside & out as the old tubes
-- tho' one might drill the bottom out a bit if reeeeeally obessed. :p :D
 
not sure I should mention this (as I hate competition when bidding) but looking on gunbroker:
Click to expand...
There is always that "BUY NOW" Tab! ;)
I like reproduction guns simply because the metallurgy is better and I just want shooters I don't collect. BUT that is nice to know that the price on the originals is reasonable.
 
I can already see a Pietta Smith Carbine in my stable. I think it would be an awesome Brush gun for getting that whitetail table fare. [emoji2] heck slinging that much lead it's probably THE brush gun!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top